DE Safety Requirements

[Pete Millikin]

With the upcoming DE in November I want to raise a couple of items for clarification. We had some people turned away in tech for safety reasons last time which I'd like to avoid. Full DE rules are here:

http://www.pcasdr.org/drivered/RegionDE ... 502rev.doc

Stock Belts OK - Section IV A says stock belts for S and SS classed cars may be allowed for novice drivers based on the event master decision. Will this rule be in effect?

Arm restraints for open cars - Section IV D requires arm restaints for all open cars. This has been confused with the rule above, so please clarify if this rule is in effect regardless of the decision in IV A

Broomstick Rule - This is a little buried in Section IV F and I wanted to make sure people are aware of the requirenment . "All occupants helmets must clear a straightedge placed between the top of the windshield frame, directly in front of the occupant’s head and the top of the roll bar directly behind the occupant’s head when seated in a normal driving position and restrained by belts and harnesses."

Finally, come on out and enjoy this event. Just a little illustration of track time should be sufficient. Autox 5 runs X 4 laps X 1.1 min per lap = 22 Min track time. DE 5 runs X 20 min = 100 Min of track time.

[Gary Burch]

Pete, you are correct.

Factory belts are OK in SSorS class for the first "2" DE events.

Open cars need arm restraints therefore open top cars must have harnesses installed and must have a roll bar, factory or aftermarket, that will pass the broomstick rule.

Long sleeved cotton shirts and long cotton pants are also required to drive or ride.

Alcohol cannot be consumed until after the first run group.(just kidding)

[Pete Millikin]

Final Q for the event master/meister - Say a boxster owner shows up that will run in s or ss class. I thought under the novice rule they can run regular belts (not five points) but must have arm restraints.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Final Q for the event master/meister - Say a boxster owner shows up that will run in s or ss class. I thought under the novice rule they can run regular belts (not five points) but must have arm restraints.

Pete
You are correct (sort of) the problem with that rule is you can't attach arm restraints w/o 5-point harnesses. They attach to the center lap belt latch.

The only way a Boxster could run w/o 5-points is if the event master and/or tech inspector pass the arm restraint installation.
(not likely)

[ttweed]

The only way a Boxster could run w/o 5-points is if the event master and/or tech inspector pass the arm restraint installation. (not likely)

I think this is one area where the rules are a little too strict for the DE events at the Q. For big tracks it's probably necessary, but for the QDE's, I think the arm restraint requirement for open cars should be waived for the novice drivers in SS and S class, along with the 5-point harnesses. Like Steve says, without the 5-points, the arm restraints can't be anchored easily, so a new Boxster or cab owner is automatically required to install harness to run, and can't take advantage of the 2-event waiver. I think this ought to be up to the event master.

The other thing no one has mentioned is a fire extinguisher must be installed and within reach of the driver, securely fastened (no zip-ties!) Several people have come to tech with a stock class car and said they thought the extinguisher wasn't required because the harnesses weren't.

TT

[RickK]

I have never tried this but couldn't you attach arm restraints with 3-point belts right at the seat belt receptor? I'm not sure if the typical arm restraint is long enough for the left arm if it is attached all the at the right side of the seat and there also may not be room in a stock buckle assembly to plug in with the arm restraint ring on the tongue. But it is worth looking into for people. I'll try mine out that way tomorrow and report back.

[Gary Burch]

I don't mind allowing SS or S coupes and targas running with stock belts, but open top cars I believe need the added protection. I know almost all have airbags and all that, still, I think we need to follow the Time-Trial format here.

And as usual Tom is right. A fire extingusher is manatory

[RickK]

I tried and there is no way to connect the arm restraints to stock seat belt receptacles.

If tech is going to ensure that even novices in open cars have arm retraints and closed face helmets or goggles then the same really needs to be checked for the instructors assigned to those cars.

[JamesWilson]

Yes, no way you can attach arm restraints to any type of stock 3-pt belt.

Personally and aside from my line of work, and with zero regard to the fact that I haven't been to a DE yet, I feel that waiving the harness rule for the first two novice events is a tad of the dangerous side (*ducking*)...DE's, even those at the stadium, offer just as much risk and danger to those on a big track, especially since the courses change at Qualcomm (and most track configurations are well known and well-defined). Any time a car is driven at speed an element of danger is present, especially when running with other drivers. It is just my personal opinion that even more so for a novice who has little or no track/"door-to-door" experiece would need to have the minimum required safety gear to keep himself and his instructor safe while learning and with other novices AND experts around them. As humans I believe we are not without fault, and even the "experts" are at equal risk of novices, sometimes even at higher speed.

I would really hate to see someone at their first or second DE get hurt from an on-track mistake or mishap, and looking back and seeing that it *may* have been avoided with the simplest of safety gear. Modern DOT-approved 3-point harnesses are fantastic devices that truly save lives and are more than adequate for street and autocross use, but there is a reason that 5-and 6-point competition harnesses are to be used......the matter of the effectiveness of that anti-sub strap (or two) on a stock seat that neither the seat nor the harness is designed to be used with eachother is notwithstanding--another issue to discuss (How Much Is Too Much Safety Gear, etc....can of worms)

Again, these are just my personal thoughts and opinions and are separate from my line of work, but are only solidified with the experiences shared with others.

FWIW, SCCA Solo2 (autocross) has had a rule that states that harness bars may not hold any structural value, and I've seen Impound/Tech situations where the bar had to bend when hand-force was applied to meet the rule--- VERY dangerous if you think that shoulder harnesses attach to that bar!! Traditionally autocross bodies have been very lax with safety requirements, all I see with the DE rules is trickledown from Time Trial and road racing-- proper safety gear finally being implemented in Motorsports, no matter what level or speed. Problem is, we also want to reduce cost and make it more appealing to novices....to that I say not getting hurt is worth a few $, and most of us can afford it.

edit-- Factory seat belts (post-'95 most cars) retract at different rates with regards to airbag deployment and timing, and certain harnesses that stretch and deform at different rates are definitely NOT designed for use with an airbag. Another can of worms, but something that also needs to be considered so that neither the harnesses nor the airbags do more harm than good. Another SCCA correlation-- they have issued an advisory early '05 that they recommend AGAINST the use of a full face helmet in airbag-equipped cars in autocross and rally situations, citing other injuries that may occur.......just more info for thought.

Your views may vary, rant over

[ttweed]

DE's, even those at the stadium, offer just as much risk and danger to those on a big track

I can't agree with that, James. The DEs at Qualcomm do not reach anywhere near the speeds of events at the big tracks, and the uniform, paved runoff is much better if someone loses it, given a well laid out track (avoiding the light poles and curbing/fences.) There are all kinds of obstacles at a big track--tire walls, hills, gullies, rocks, concrete barriers, Armco, etc., and soft, slippery stuff for your wheels to slide on or dig into if you run off the paving. Putting two wheels off into the dirt in a high-speed corner can more easily result in a loss of control due to the difference in traction on one side of the car than the other, whereas at the stadium, you run wide in a corner and you mow some cones.

Spins at the stadium usually result in nothing more than some tire smoke and squeeling. Off-track incidents at a big track offer more of a chance for roll-overs and serious damage with higher speeds, less traction in the runoff areas, and more obstacles.

The tracks we lay out at the Q are simple and fully visible, with no blind corners as you experience at some tracks. They are much less challenging to drive and easier to learn. In reality, the DEs at the Q are just an autox with traffic and continuous laps, less turning, and a slightly longer straightaway or two. It is a perfect stepping stone to a big track DE and much safer, IMHO. I think our DE rules should reflect that difference. I'm not saying "lets run with no helmets or seatbelts," I'm saying that arm restraints are probably not necessary for novices in S and SS class at the QDEs, especially since they require race harnesses to work correctly, and we have waived that requirement in those classes for beginners. It doesn't make sense to me. I think it's overkill. But Gary has spoken, and he's the event master, so anyone looking to run a Boxster or Cab should be planning on bringing arm restraints.

TT

[kary]

I stopped doing stadium DE/TT events some time ago. I do find them to be very dangerous compared to a big track for the simple reason that there are poles around and the speeds are just to great. When I last ran one I hit 115 mph and had two people spin in front of me (looking in mirrors) and almost hit a light pole. If anyone recalls what happened to that 928 in the SE lot auto-x when it hit the trolley pole that is what will happen roughly with a light pole. That said, at a big track one can hit a wall but usually it is not head on. Tom's account of roll overs are possible on big tracks particularly with newbie's who think they can turn out of trouble in the dirt, nope!

At any rate the other reason I stopped running at the Q are the brakes and engine cooling. There is not enough time to get any air on the brakes, nor the engine. Brakes are the bigger issue in my mind. So I decided it simply was not worth the risk. Big tracks for me where the surface is known, consistent, and room to pass is plentiful as compared to the Q.

[Dan Chambers]

At any rate the other reason I stopped running at the Q are the brakes and engine cooling. There is not enough time to get any air on the brakes, nor the engine. Brakes are the bigger issue in my mind. So I decided it simply was not worth the risk. Big tracks for me where the surface is known, consistent, and room to pass is plentiful as compared to the Q.

As someone who used to design the QDE tracks, I can say that the designers frequently heard comments about DE's at the Q being hard on brakes, tires and engines; and that some were extremely fast for such a tight location with concrete light bases. They Listened.

Since 2003, with the input of the Safety Team, experienced drivers, former chairs, and commited educators, the QDE tracks have changed a bit from the older track designs:

Some examples:

1) Tight 180-degree second gear turns were eliminated. They were, in most cases, replaced with 2 90-degree turns linked with a small straight in-between. This reduced the severely hard braking that used to happen when transitioning to tight turns from very fast sections. This simple design change reduced hard braking (so less brake-overheating) and reduced the possibility of spins and off track events. Less hard braking, less tight turns, and less spinning reduced tire wear a little. Currently, no tight 180-degree turns (low RPM 2nd gear) are used in DE track design.

2) Straight-aways were reduced in length. This reduced over-all speed (thus reducing some risk), and reduced hard braking at the end of the straights. (Again, a little easier on brakes, and tires.) The maximum speeds were reduced, roughly, by upwards of 20% (as noted in my 944, Monica's 912, and Bro-In-Law's 996). In addition, straights are not typically followed by tight turns. Rather, they usually have a somewhat sweeping turn that allows for a smoother transition from fast-and-straight to slower-with turns. (Think Streets of Willow before and after the bowl.) This reduces hard braking, and severly tight turn-ins. Again, easier on brakes and tires.

3) Sweepers, mostly at the "bottom of the hill" were designed with slight increasing radius exits. (This may have increased tire wear on some "rear-engined high horsepower" cars where tail-swing was "exaggerated" and corrected by hard throttling. This was a driver-specific issue, and not a common problem.) Overall issues of better car control, smooth transitioning on to faster sections, and an excellent teaching tool were accomplished by implementing this design change.

As with any "coned" track design, evolution is the norm, and the current A-X/QDE Chairs have done an exceptional job of adhering to safety, listening to drivers/educators comments, and adjusting to ever-deteriorating asphalt conditions. The result has been track designs with interesting technical ares for the "tech-y" drivers, and open passing zones for the "peddle-to-the-metal-dragster" types.

Some folks on the forum have commented on how hard the QDE's are on their cars, yet some of them haven't been to a QDE in years. I believe we owe it to the Chairs that put on the QDE's a measure of confidence and credit for realizing the conditions that needed change, and then implementing them. The QDE's of today are, in my opinion, far different from the first one I drove in 2002. If you haven't driven a QDE lately, you don't know what you're missing. Come down and see what I'm talking about.

Hats off to the AX/QDE Team!

See you all on the 13th!

[Dan Chambers]

The tracks we lay out at the Q are simple and fully visible, with no blind corners as you experience at some tracks. They are much less challenging to drive and easier to learn. In reality, the DEs at the Q are just an autox with traffic and continuous laps, less turning, and a slightly longer straightaway or two. It is a perfect stepping stone to a big track DE and much safer, IMHO. I think our DE rules should reflect that difference. I'm not saying "lets run with no helmets or seatbelts," I'm saying that arm restraints are probably not necessary for novices in S and SS class at the QDEs, especially since they require race harnesses to work correctly, and we have waived that requirement in those classes for beginners. It doesn't make sense to me. I think it's overkill. But Gary has spoken, and he's the event master, so anyone looking to run a Boxster or Cab should be planning on bringing arm restraints.

TT

Tom, and James:

We've had this debate about open-top cars and limits of safety equipment for years. (One year, a PCA President - I won't say who - came down to a QDE event and over-rode the safety requirements for restraint systems of the Tech Chair and Event Chair, resulting in the temporary resignation of the Tech Chair from that event. Apologies were later recieved from that President to the respective Chairs.) It has been a hotly-debated issue, since coupe S and SS drivers are allowed a helmet, factory 3-point restraints, and a fire extinguisher as minimum safety equipment for the first two events. (Essentially, a Taste of the Track concept.) All open-top cars (Boxters and Cabriolets) have been required to have 5-point harnesses, arm restraints, and a fire extinguisher.

The theory currently used for safety equipment at QDE's is based on worse-case scenarios. Sick and demented as it may seem, the safety equipment used in vehicles, and the policy thereof, is based on the worst-possible-thing-that-could-happen at the event. In this case: roll-over, hitting objects or other cars at speed, the breaking or severing of limbs (arms) during a roll-over in an open-topped car, and fire. It is presumed that, with QDE speeds, in a roll-over, an Instructor/driver will most likely not be thrown from the vehicle, or experience loss of limb with a 3-point restraint system and a fixed/solid roof. It is also presumed, that the risk of a driver/Instructor being thrown from a vehicle in a roll-over is greater with an open-topped vehicle in three-point restraint system, than if equipped with a 5-point restraint system and arm-restraints. It is also presumed that a driver/Instructor is more likely to be thrown from an open-topped/cabriolet vehicle than a solid topped coupe. Again, the safety issues revolve around the theory of worse-case scenarios, and presumption of safety-to-risk equipment requirements.

Maybe an off-line discussion should occur between those experienced drivers - both small and big track alike- the Tech Chairs, the AX/QDE Chairs, the Time Trial Chairs, the Safety Chairs, the Insurance Chair and all interested parties to come up with a solution to this. To date, we've relied very heavily on the Safety, Insurance, Tech, and AX/QDE chairs to make the call. The ultimate decision has, historically, rested with the AX/QDE Chairs.

I'd guess that if someone were to call a meeting of all interested parties to get together at a BBQ, or a restaurant, or similar place, in an atmosphere of friendship and fun, some good things could result. (Drinks would be on Gary Burch, of course .... Just kidding!) Maybe a change in policy, definitely an education about safety issues at the QDE's. I'd be interested in attending.

Just my thoughts. Any other thoughts out there?

[kary]

Some folks on the forum have commented on how hard the QDE's are on their cars, yet some of them haven't been to a QDE in years. I believe we owe it to the Chairs that put on the QDE's a measure of confidence and credit for realizing the conditions that needed change, and then implementing them. The QDE's of today are, in my opinion, far different from the first one I drove in 2002. If you haven't driven a QDE lately, you don't know what you're missing. Come down and see what I'm talking about.

Hats off to the AX/QDE Team!

See you all on the 13th!

Dan you could be right, as I am one who has not gone to an event there in years, though I have stopped by to watch on occasion. What I see is pavement tearing up and people hitting swales hard. After I have two wheels fixed after bending them is when I decided to stop. That said, I am not interested in going slower and I am not sure what the elimination of 2nd gear turns does for these events, as there are plenty of 2nd gear turns on big tracks. At some point you need to slow down and braking is necessary. It is not braking that is the issue, it is the lack of time to cool the brakes. Unless you are going NASCAR on us and going in a circle?

I like knowing there is adequate room to go off as I calculate where on a track I can go all out and also where I cannot because the penalty is too great. At the Q, there are few spots in those terms, but then I am sure others will debate what I already know to be dangerous. Personally, I have seen more accidents at the Q (auto-x in particular) than I have seen at big track DE/TT events. That alone should be telling us something. Maybe newbie drivers would be a bit safer on a bigger track?

A knowledgeable friend of mine who has been in this club for many years said something to me a few weeks about the Q. I am paraphrasing but you will get the idea. The rules we have for PCA events were formed 30 plus years ago. Some rules have changed slightly, but none of them have kept up with the difference of a 60 horsepower 356 and 390 horsepower GT3. We continue to run the same rules from years ago but the cars are far faster.



DISCLAIMER: I am not attacking those chair persons or those participates of these events. All are doing a great job! So please do not take this or other posts in the wrong way.

[Dan Chambers]

Kary:

You make many good points. Like other times, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

"What I see is pavement tearing up and people hitting swales hard."

Pavement issues will always be issues. The difference today vs 2002: #1 more effort goes into designing routes around the holes today than when I drove the courses in 2002.
#2 Driving is halted and courses are changed to avoided broken patches - and thus damaging cars - unlike that in 2002. In 2002 my Instructor told me I had to avoid the holes, and change my line. That is no longer the case.

As to the swale: I don't know where you were standing, but the swale crossing at QDE's is actually gauged on degree of approach and degree of departure during track design. In practice angle of approach is measured around 5-degrees, and never more than 10-degrees (at least, that's how I did it in 2004). If 2 or 3-degrees is possible, it's implemented. Angle of departure is equal to angle of approach to avoid unsettling the car. Had you driven one of my tracks, you might have notices the transition across the swale has changed since 2002. At the last 2 QDE's there was no swale crossing . (Of course, you weren't there to observe that. )

I didn't say we have no 2nd gear turns. Yes, there are 2nd gear turns at big tracks (Turn 3 and the hairpin at Cal Speedway, Turn 2 at SOW, Turns 2,3,4 at Buttonwillow ... all of these in a very slow 944, no less.) We also have 2nd gear turns at QDE's. Lots of them, just not really slow 180-degree ones .... like the "old days." Here's my quote:

Currently, no tight 180-degree turns (low RPM 2nd gear) are used in DE track design. I didn't say "no 2nd gear turns" ..... well, you get the idea.

As to braking: it's always been my expreience that the longer/harder on the brakes, the hotter the brake system. So, if you're on the brakes less time, wouldn't they run cooler, necessitating less cooling-time between braking? I guess the track designs I spoke about in reference to braking weren't very clear. Sorry. Not NASCAR, but not 80-MPH to 20-MPH either. That was the inference.

" A knowledgeable friend of mine who has been in this club for many years said something to me a few weeks about the Q. I am paraphrasing but you will get the idea. The rules we have for PCA events were formed 30 plus years ago. Some rules have changed slightly, but none of them have kept up with the difference of a 60 horsepower 356 and 390 horsepower GT3. We continue to run the same rules from years ago but the cars are far faster."

Quite observant. And, when Gary and I joined Carl Scargg in 2003 as A-X Chairs, that was the first topic of discussion (after ... let's have fun, guys), and the over-riding topic behind every track design starting in January 2003. We also took in to account changes in tire design and compound improvements, braking system improvements, and suspension improvements. One of our greatest challenges was designing tracks that satisfy both the 356 and 996 driver alike. So, although the Rules remain the same, the Designs are, in many ways, completely different from 30 years ago. Drivers who have driven the QDE and A-X tracks of today, and who drove the "tracks of yore" will tell you as such, I'm sure. So, although the rules may not reflect the changing of the times, the designs of the tracks have.



Again, all I can say is, unless you drive them, you don't know what your missing.....

Hope to see everyone out there.

Dan'o