2008 Z-8 Rules Explained (Seats & Harnesses)

[Steve Grosekemper]

Attention all TT/DE/AX drivers!

It is imperative that you read this document ASAP as it may effect you if you are running Saturdays AX.

It is quite long and detailed, but I hope it answers all your rules questions... although I know there will be something I missed.

If you are looking for specific answers on harness installation as it is related to stock seats skip down to #13 before reading the remainder of the document. This is the question that seems to be on the top of most peoples list.

Here's the document
http://www.pcasdr.org/img/pdf/general/P ... 202008.pdf

[mrondeau]

Steve,

Thanks for putting this info together for everyone. This should clarify things for everyone.

[ttweed]

Steve-

That is definitely a big help. Thank you! I have a couple of questions though. Regarding using race harnesses with stock, high-backed seats, you have shown the configuration for using a dual anti-sub harness (the "sit-on", formula car style) as an approved manufacturer's installation, eliminating the need for a routing hole in the seat bottom. What I haven't seen, and I have searched thru the Schroth site and others, is an "approved installation configuration" for using a halo strap (or H-strap, in the case of low-backed seats) to ensure proper routing of the shoulder straps. In fact, in the "About Seats" section on the Schroth site is this warning:

Is there another section on the Schroth site that shows a halo strap as being adequate for preventing the shoulder straps from sliding off a highback seat with no openings? Are we to assume now in tech that this type of installation is approved by all harness manufacturers? The rules seem to put this burden on the entrant with the following wording: "The entrant needs to be prepared to show that the installation is within the manufacturer's recommended configurations whenever asked by a tech inspector." If I can assume that such installations are universally approved, then I wouldn't ask, but I can't find any such documentation on the Schroth site.

Also, I am a little confused by your explanation of the new helmet rules (#11). You say: "Snell M-2000/2005 helmets are allowed (Must use a head sock for Improved class and higher)." This only applies to TT/DE events, when a driving suit is required, correct? At an autox, M helmets are fine without a nomex balaclava, no? The current rules document shows a driving suit required in Modified classes and higher, not Improved class and higher, so is that just a typo?

Thanks,
TT

[Steve Grosekemper]

Steve-

That is definitely a big help. Thank you! I have a couple of questions though. Regarding using race harnesses with stock, high-backed seats, you have shown the configuration for using a dual anti-sub harness (the "sit-on", formula car style) as an approved manufacturer's installation, eliminating the need for a routing hole in the seat bottom. What I haven't seen, and I have searched thru the Schroth site and others, is an "approved installation configuration" for using a halo strap (or H-strap, in the case of low-backed seats) to ensure proper routing of the shoulder straps. In fact, in the "About Seats" section on the Schroth site is this warning:

Is there another section on the Schroth site that shows a halo strap as being adequate for preventing the shoulder straps from sliding off a highback seat with no openings? Are we to assume now in tech that this type of installation is approved by all harness manufacturers? The rules seem to put this burden on the entrant with the following wording: "The entrant needs to be prepared to show that the installation is within the manufacturer's recommended configurations whenever asked by a tech inspector." If I can assume that such installations are universally approved, then I wouldn't ask, but I can't find any such documentation on the Schroth site.

Also, I am a little confused by your explanation of the new helmet rules (#11). You say: "Snell M-2000/2005 helmets are allowed (Must use a head sock for Improved class and higher)." This only applies to TT/DE events, when a driving suit is required, correct? At an autox, M helmets are fine without a nomex balaclava, no? The current rules document shows a driving suit required in Modified classes and higher, not Improved class and higher, so is that just a typo?

Thanks,
TT

See Tom, I knew there would be something I missed...
Yes, Driving suits are required for Modified classes only. I will make the correction as soon as I can.

As far as the halo issue I will look into that, I read it as you need one and stopped before the "manufacturer’s approved configuration" part.
I will try to look into this today... After 30 pages it is hard to keep it all straight and I was really concentrating on the sub strap issue.

[bibbetson]

Everyone,

Steve has spent an enormous amount of time trying to determine a reasonable resolution to the new harness rules as well as clarify the rest of them. As you can tell from Tom's post, all the kinks have not been worked out yet. IF Steve finds a resolution, it will have been out of the kindness of his heart and his pursuit to trying to do the right thing for the members of the club. The fact that Steve cares enough to spend the time on this is a testament to how much he cares for the club, as he has been trying to get away from being responsible for rules for years. Steve has stepped up year after year when it comes time to dealing with the rules because it needs to be done for the betterment of the club members and our driving programs (even though the drivers are responsible for interpreting and implementing the rules themselves). If he finds the energy to finish the process this year, we all owe him our gratitude and a huge round of applause.

I just want to be sure that everyone realizes the amount of effort Steve is putting into this to help US and that he is recognized for that effort.

Bill Ibbetson

[mrondeau]

+1 Steve, Thanks again!

[harnishclan]

The document link in the original post is dead.

[ronaldtrotter]

Steve for one has always been a big help. The amount of time he has spent is above and beyond.

Thanks Steve

[ttweed]

The document link in the original post is dead.

Yah, Brian, Steve took it down and substituted "www.document has been removed for editing" temporarily in place of the link in his original post.

I will definitely add my appreciation for the time that Steve contributes to the club (in more ways than one) to make it better for all of us.

All of my comments have been made for clarification and constructive purposes, as a concerned member of the tech team, and in no way am I trying to discourage his efforts or agitate him--he is too good a friend for that! In fact, a care package of Mutha Tom's Chocolate Chip Macadamia Nut Cookies is in the works for him as I type.

The fact is, however, that we have seen this change regarding race harnesses and stock seats coming since 2006, when the rules for 2007 were first published. They "grandfathered" the old installations for a year, and made it clear that 2008 was going to be the end of it, and that purpose-built race seats were going to be required in Prepared class and higher with harness installations. I don't think any modern harness manufacturer could possibly approve of a halo strap on a high-backed seat these days, and I am positive that they cannot work effectively with a HANs device, which every serious time trialer should be considering as well (and were nearly made mandatory this year also.)

TT

[John Straub]

So Tom, you bring up the question about driving suits for mod. cars. Is that just for DE and TT? Now I'm really getting confused.

[ttweed]

So Tom, you bring up the question about driving suits for mod. cars. Is that just for DE and TT? Now I'm really getting confused.

Yes, John, driving suits are required for TT/DE in Modified classes and above, but they are only "recommended" for autox.

The reason I mentioned them is that they are linked to the helmet rules now--since the M Snell helmet rating does not require a fire proof lining, when a driving suit is required, a nomex hood must be worn under an M-rated helmet. Previously, one could not even use an M-rated helmet at all for TT/DE, no matter what the class, only SA-rated was acceptable.

TT

[John Straub]

Thanks Tom. I guess I'm not the only one scratching my head over all this stuff.

[bibbetson]

Tom, I was hoping that my post wouldn't be taken the wrong way. I reworded it about five times. Thanks for spending the time to review the original document and post your thoughts. I was mostly trying to cheerlead Steve to finish and not give up.

[Steve Grosekemper]

OK- The new document is complete and correct... Until Tom finds something else I missed
http://www.pcasdr.org/img/pdf/general/P ... 202008.pdf
Please review the entire document
#13 is where you will find harness information.

The short answer is no 5/6-points with stock seats, no way around it.
Don't show up in tech with them in the car, and no you can't wear an illegal 5-point over (or under) your legal 3-point.
There is an answer for racing seats with no sub strap though.

For those of you that use harnesses mainly to hold you in the stock seats try this:
http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html
Works pretty good and is quite popular with the SCCA set.
Ordering one for my 911SC.

Enjoy the read, sorry it took so long.

[John Straub]

Thanks for your work on this Steve.