944 Spec tech session?

[Dan Chambers]

Tim, and 944 crew:

It's been a little over a year since I stepped out from behind the engine, but I think I'd like a go at it.

Toby: seat time and skills are everything. As previously suggested, set the car up, and then spend some serious time learning. Only after you can't get the car any faster should you spend more money. (I did it backwards, and spend too much $$ from the outset. It was only after two+ years of continuous training and religious attendance at every event with constant tips from the best drivers that I could take a lap without complete embarrassment. Don't spend your money, spend your time. Work on the fundamentals ... especially looking ahead and good braking skills ... and remember that you can never be too smooth.)

I try to beat myself each event; reduce my differential to TTOD. I'm 52, will never again have 19 year old reflexes, will never be an F1 driver. But I do have 20+ years of a fun hobby, and surely I can get a bit better each year.
So I'm in the camp of more instruction until you can recognize and define the problem your car has that you can't fix by driving better.

Probably the smartest thing I've heard on the forum in months. Sage insight, Curt.

Keep me in the loop, Tim.

[elcap00]

As previously suggested, set the car up

Dan--that is the question for me--what is set up? gut the car--did that/did everything I could on suspension/I have done everything that I think should be done--I have not corner balanced the car, dyno tuned, or touched the motor in any way--I still have the stock air box! I built the car myself over the last 7 months or so--in retrospect I should have just bought one already done that had a good track record.

My lap times are not that bad --as mentioned I am off Jackie's time by about 3 seconds. I keep thinking it is the car because whenever I take my 996 out in OSS I typically beat the group by 2 or 3 seconds (either in SDR or OC). I am winner in my 996 and a loser in my 944--can it really be my driving or is it the car? Or are my 944 competitors that much better than in OSS? That is the question-for me.

I probably should put my car on a dyno and find out if my motor is tired. My competitor has the same motor as me but, she has a different gear box--that is worth time I am just not sure how much. So at this point car set-up is a very big deal--driving skill will come.

That is why this session interests me--I am trying to find a baseline for actual car set up and find out what I should be doing (other than seat time)in order to be competitive. Make sense? Once I know that my car is setup to be competitive--then I can focus solely on driving and know that if I lose it is due to my lack of skill.

[4est]

My wife bought me a beautiful 993 C4S, which in my mind represented the epitome of Porsche. Normally aspirated, air cooled, fully optioned, my favorite Porsche color. And I gutted it and turned it into a track car. I could have kept it stock and bought another car that was already fully prepared for the track for less money than I did spend and had a supercool daily driver (and future collectible) and a good track car. Woe is me...

My advise to every newer driver:

Yours is a Porsche, let us remember. It is already a serious piece of equipment in its factory form. Spend money on a professional track alignment/corner balance and a great set of tires and the car will be much better than you for like two years.

Then, start with the little things that come from the factory for use on the street, like brake pads and spring rates. The coolio stuff like air intakes and headers and camber-plates and mono-balls really add up in terms of money spent. I don't think that the benefit is nearly proportional for the average club driver. These things may get a professional driver another second or two. A session with Jackie, Curt, David G or Martin will get you that same second or two, and it's free. I know this from experience.

Dying to spend money? Spend it on driving events!
Driving is where the real fun is, not having a 'real' race car. I could bore you to tears with all the cool things I have done to my car, all the while watching guys in close to stock 993s run circles around me.

My $.02

[Curt Yaws]

Toby:

Why don't you move your focus from Jackie to another direction. My suggestion is that you bring your car to an AX and put a couple of good 944 drivers in it, like Chuck or Tim. Watch how they drive, and compare your times to them. That might give you a base line to use for comparison. Last year when Jack Miller got in my car at Fontana, he was a full 6 seconds faster than me. It was nothing but driver difference. I knew I needed to understand those 6 seconds before I worried about changing my car.

You were the winner in an SS class, but you are finding much better drivers in a Spec class. That will be good for you down the line. What if you give yourself a year to work on yourself, instead of the car. I say that with full respect.

The truth is most of the shops will do whatever you ask of them. They do cars for a living. It's a good thing for guys like us. But, you might just get better faster if you give them your money later.

[Dan Chambers]

Dan--that is the question for me--what is set up? gut the car--did that/did everything I could on suspension/I have done everything that I think should be done--I have not corner balanced the car, dyno tuned, or touched the motor in any way--I still have the stock air box! I built the car myself over the last 7 months or so--in retrospect I should have just bought one already done that had a good track record.

Toby, it appears you may have gone too far already.

My old 944 was a fully weighted (3185# with me in it) 944 with seats, springs, shocks, lowered and corner-balanced. I was fairly competitive in it (ask Jackie), and it was still a nice street car with full interior, air conditioning, sound-proofing ... the works. The difference was, I learned how to drive it. (Check the results from 2005 and 2006 vs spec class.)

Now that you've commited so much to your car, the only thing I can say is, take what you have to a good shop for alignment and corner-balancing (Mirage, Black Forest, Dieters, Extreme) and ... drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive, drive it. Your 3 seconds behind Jackie, over time, will diminish. The engine is tuned as good as it gets. Leave it alone. The suspension should be balanced to work front and back as a team. A good set of brakes is also important. I'm guessing this is already done. It sounds like you have the tools. Now the nuance of driving it is the key to better times.

A quick bit of history: A few years back at one of her first DE's, Jackie worked with me on her driving. This was very early in her driving experience. She made the comment ... "I'm frustrated: I don't think I'll ever be as good as the guys in spec class. I wonder if I'm wasting my time? Those guys are just so good ... I'll never catch 'em."

Oh, how times have changed. She's a pistol, and living proof that patience, perserverence, and practice, practice, practice can change the way you drive, and the way you learn. The SDR is a huge resource for skilled drivers. Use your resources, and be patient. IMO: Stop spending money.

One last tidbit: I learned very early on who the top finishers in 944's were in those days (Jad Duncan, Ralph Linares, John Kinkaid, Jerry Mize), and made sure they were my instructors and ride-along partners on occasional laps. If you really want to catch Jackie ....

Just my experience and opinions. Hope it helps.

[elcap00]

Guys--
Thanks for the advice but, in terms of spending money I think I have already bought everything I could--Racers edge spericals all the way around $1150--Racers edge camber plates $500 and I just bought a Stahl Header that was $995 (still in the box). Has it gotten me faster? NO but, internally I know that I cant use that as an excuse for not winning.

I know that I need to learn to drive the car and I think that has been a problem for the last 7 months--each event it was a NEW car---I changed something every other week. Now I am 98% done--it is always the last 2% that is the hardest and sometimes makes the most difference.

I think the next event--I should have each of you super fast guys ride with me and then give me your undiluted critique. As soon as I got cleared for "no instructor" after 4 events I have never had anyone else in my car--not because I thought I didnt need instruction but, only 1 out of my 4 instructors were worth the extra weight in my car.

I will rethink the use of the seasoned vets in SDR--Curt and Dan--thank you for your honest viewpoints of this issue--it is very much appreciated.

Now--back to the tech session.

[Irksome]

I can't claim to be high on the skill side yet, but I will throw out that I have had much more learning from riding in an instructor's car than I have in having an instructor in my passenger seat. Each time I've 'mastered' my current level, I've gotten in the car with someone who kicks my butt, and I've learned the next thing I can learn. For example, my last major learning was from Ted Drcar, who had lots of suggestions (all of which were valuable!), but I learned most by being in his car when he did his runs, and realizing I did not know how to brake. Being thrown (not quite literally) through his windshield was quite instructive!

Ride WITH instructors as much as you get them to ride with you, and see what they can make their car do that you struggle with.

[elcap00]

Aha--
One of the best pieces I have heard.
Love it

[Curt Yaws]

Toby:

Be sure not to shoot yourself in the gas pedal foot. When you say 3 out of 4 instructors are not worth their weight in your car, it might be tough to get a good driver to go along with you. I know you were jesting, but you will find that we have a serious good group of instructors, and there is a pretty good reason we have sold-out driving schools twice a year, with students from around the country. Our instructors are that good. That's why I use them. Check around the region. Look at the Festival of Speed results. See who wins. It's SDR instructors.

[Gary Burch]

It's better to drive a slow car fast than drive a fast car slow.

[Curt Yaws]

Gary, are you talking about me again?

[Dan Chambers]

Toby:

Be sure not to shoot yourself in the gas pedal foot. When you say 3 out of 4 instructors are not worth their weight in your car, it might be tough to get a good driver to go along with you. I know you were jesting, but you will find that we have a serious good group of instructors, and there is a pretty good reason we have sold-out driving schools twice a year, with students from around the country. Our instructors are that good. That's why I use them. Check around the region. Look at the Festival of Speed results. See who wins. It's SDR instructors.

Words well spoken ... from the "future CDI?"

[elcap00]

Our instructors are that good-Quote from Curt

Curt and Dan
Do not misunderstand---I think they club has some fantastic drivers and instructors. The club also has some instructors that just make the cut IMHO.

I personally have enough events to be an instructor although, I am not. I dont think my times justify me trying to instruct a new driver.

This club does have some people like me instructing---I will not name "names".
I for one would be very dissapointed if I drove from AZ or NV and got me as an instructor

with students from around the country

Curt--for the record
I have had some great Instructors-Bill I, Carl V, Chuck S, Morgan T and others--I have also had some instructors that gave no instruction.

It is my thinking that until I can add enough value to justify my 167lbs in the car I wont instruct. Do you honestly think that is what every instructor feels? We both know that there are some "instructors" that should not be instructing. On the other hand there are many, many instructors that should/would be able to charge for their time. It is those instructors that this club should encourage to continue instructing--whether that is no corner working or no AX entry fee; I dont know. Similar to track times I wonder if there is an accurate way to gauge the effectiveness of each instructor and rank them--It is the talented drivers/instructors that form the foundational skill pool that all new drivers drink. I think it is a mistake to classify instructors in just one category--all instructors are not equal and there is such a thing as a non-instructor wearing an instructors uniform.

It really is amazing that so many talented people will dedicate/volunteer their whole weekend in order to help other people at an event like PDS. That is why this is such a great club. I doubt that you would disagree with that viewpoint.

[Gary Burch]

Well, that's quite an indictment.

All of the instructors, either at the PDS, an autocross, or a time trial, have one priority- and that is to make their student better. To give them the tools and the knowledge to become a better driver. Nobody is above learning something. I know I still need lots of help with my driving and I am an instructor. Does that make me a bad instructor, or a marginal instructor? Granted the approaches are different and the skill levels varied, but I would say every instructor in this club has something to teach a beginning driver or even an intermediate one.

elcap00, I think you should concentrate on improving your driving and if you have a personality conflict or feel as if you've been shorted on your latest instructor, ask the CDI to get you another one, if you can find one.

[Josh Y]

It is my thinking that until I can add enough value to justify my 167lbs in the car I wont instruct. Do you honestly think that is what every instructor feels? We both know that there are some "instructors" that should not be instructing. On the other hand there are many, many instructors that should/would be able to charge for their time. It is those instructors that this club should encourage to continue instructing--whether that is no corner working or no AX entry fee; I dont know. Similar to track times I wonder if there is an accurate way to gauge the effectiveness of each instructor and rank them--It is the talented drivers/instructors that form the foundational skill pool that all new drivers drink. I think it is a mistake to classify instructors in just one category--all instructors are not equal and there is such a thing as a non-instructor wearing an instructors uniform.

those are some pretty hefty words there Mister Toby