Are PASM equipped cars allowed to run in SS "Street Sto

[mrondeau]

Does anyone have an opinion on the merits of completely changing SS next year to be a class in which any car purchased from the dealer with factory options would be allowed. Yes, this means X50 package cars run SS, but I think the SS is the least competitive and anyone should be able to buy their car and bring it down to run. The higher classes are more likely to build cheater cars.

The SS ranks are mostly made up of newer members in newer cars (certainly not exclusively, but primarily) and these are exactly the folks we want staying with the program or we are going to become the Porsche Vintage AX Club. We need to make it easy and fair (within tolerance) for these folks to competitively run what they bought in an entry level class (SS).

I agree that the majority of the cars in SS are members who bought their cars at the dealer or private party and then decided to AX them and see what they could do. I think there would be a very small percentage (.0001%?) of drivers who would actually go out and order PASM, etc just to gain an advantage at an AX. I know that when I started out in my Boxster, it was just to see what the car and I could do. I've since moved on to a 944 spec car and only occasionally AX the Boxster (when the 944 is out for repairs or the AX is too close to a big track day).

Let's let the SS cars race each other however they came from the dealership on slippery street tires and may the best driver (because that's what will be the determining factor) win!

That's my opinion

BTW - Duane did beat me last August on very worn tires because he outdrove me.

[kurquhart]

Are wheels are part of the suspension?

I think you would be alone (or nearly?) in defining the suspension (as described at length in the Zone 8 rules) to include the wheels or tires.

I agree that the Z8 rules do not include tires/wheels in their definition of suspension, but they most definitely are from a technical perspective. Pretty much any change that you make to tire/wheel/pressure will impact the effective spring rate and/or damping characteristics. Take a modern F1 car as an example: there are no traditional springs/dampers, instead it relies entirely on flexible carbon fiber components and the sidewall of the tire for its suspension.

[Irksome]

I agree that the Z8 rules do not include tires/wheels in their definition of suspension, but they most definitely are from a technical perspective. Pretty much any change that you make to tire/wheel/pressure will impact the effective spring rate and/or damping characteristics. Take a modern F1 car as an example: there are no traditional springs/dampers, instead it relies entirely on flexible carbon fiber components and the sidewall of the tire for its suspension.

No doubt. My point isn't that wheels and tires aren't an important part of what 'suspends' the car from the ground, but that the Zone 8 rules define the suspension as including things like springs, shock absorbers, anti-sway bars, camber plates, etc., and deal with wheels and tires in different sections of the rules. That's all I meant. =)

[Bob Gagnon]

This is way off topic, but I wonder how the club will treat the PDK gearbox if class winners have it once it shows up at autocross.

It remains to be seen, but theoretically there could be some advantages, like up shifting mid-corner without disturbing the car, going to a left foot braking technique for everything since heel and toe not necessary, easy blending of brake and throttle together while downshifting during corner entry, etc. i.e. all the advantages the F1 cars went to paddle shifters for.

Not to mention the PDK has closer gear ratios than the 6-speed and, if you order the Sport Chrono, very quick shifts and launch control.

All theoretical at this point.

[Irksome]

Not theoretical for much longer, though. Did you see the Panorama's writeup? 0-60 faster with PDK than with 6-speed. On paper, the only disadvantage of PDK appears to be top speed. Should be interesting to see if the PDK can deal with AX conditions, where it needs to oscillate between 2nd and 3rd most of the time, rather than progressing up the gears all the time.

[tb911]

I think the rules are very clear when you read them. If PASM is an option that includes upgraded springs and shocks then it is not allowed in SS classes as those upgrades are specifically excluded from SS. If it is not an option, but on the base model car, then it is allowed in SS.

I'm sorry it took so long to answer, but the clarification document has now been updated with your question. It can be found here: http://zone8.pca.org/rules.htm

To answer another question, while it may not be stated anywhere (I'll fix that!), wheels and tires are not considered suspension components in the intent of the rules, meaning that wheels and tires may be changed in SS as long as the change does not incur more than 2 points (points for tire width & track must be considered, as well as nothing below 140 tread wear).

Also, as for enforcement, we work on the honor system. Nobody enforces anything. The driver is supposed to know what they have and class accordingly. If their competition disagrees, they can protest. There are several penalized things in the rules that are not easy to spot with a quick visual inspection. Is this a problem for beginners? Absolutely. I think we need a beginners class that is "drive it like you bought it".

Driving Event proposal # 2 is all about making SS a "drive it like you bought it" class. However, almost every comment I've received is against this change. They all feel that allowing options into SS is unfair to the base model cars. The problem is that some people never leave SS. They don't see it as a 'beginner' class, they see it as a 'I never want to buy sticky tires' class, and want to stay in it and compete in it forever, without having to worry about a car with factory options that they don't have spoiling their fun.

So do we need another level of classes? Everybody seems to scream "no" at that one. (Not sure why, most would be unused, so what does having them on paper hurt?) I see four groups trying to be served by the two classes (SS & S). SS is trying to serve: Beginners who need a "drive it like you bought it" class and serious racers who don't want to modify anything. Obviously beginners are forced into the latter. S is trying to serve: Those that want to modify suspension, etc. but not buy sticky tires, and those that will buy sticky tires. Again, the former is forced into the latter today. Obviously there is a problem here. So do we add a bunch of new classes to fix this? Of course, perhaps we can take away at the top end. Do we really need all the P, I, M, and R classes? Maybe some of them could be consolidated.

If you have an opinion you want considered, you better send me comments quickly. You are late, the comment period is closed so I can't guarantee the rules committee will pay attention, but you can try. (And yes, I've begged for comments many times, with little result.)

You can find the proposals here: http://zone8.pca.org/rules_prop.htm

My email is: tb911@roadrunner.com

[Jad]

[quote="tb911"]
Driving Event proposal # 2 is all about making SS a "drive it like you bought it" class. However, almost every comment I've received is against this change. They all feel that allowing options into SS is unfair to the base model cars. The problem is that some people never leave SS. They don't see it as a 'beginner' class, they see it as a 'I never want to buy sticky tires' class, and want to stay in it and compete in it forever, without having to worry about a car with factory options that they don't have spoiling their fun.

quote]

The thinking behind my suggestion was that the base model cars are SLIGHTLY disadvantaged by some of the options, but the poor guy in the C4S that get kicked into Prepared class has absolutely no chance in his "stock" car. Plus the improved class tends to be more competitive, so the base car with a good driver could compete with an M030 or PASM car pretty well. A 996 C4S could not compete in OP with my racecar even with Schumacher or Patrick Long driving it (I dont think )

If there is not support for this revised SS class, I will just let it go.

[tb911]

If there is not support for this revised SS class, I will just let it go.

I don't know if there is support or not. That is the problem. Only those against the change have commented. Perhaps those that support it just never get around to sending me an email with their comments. Whole lot of people type on this forum all day long, but they never bother to read the proposals and send an email. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[cam]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Quite often squeaky wheels are hammered out and thrown out.(sometimes on this forum)