PCA SDR

Hi guys!

This has been discussed in the past but would appreciate hearing latest opinions about the comparative performance of 3 of the popular R tires that we use:

Toyo RA-1 (understand they are still available?)
Toyo R888
Nitto NT01

Otto:

Take a look at the following topic: Q-AX tire wear question - there is a lot of discussion about tires in that topic. Then let us know if you want other information.

Thank you Chuck! I read that thread and you are right, lots of information. I have no complaints about the Toyo RA-1, the only tire of the 3 that I have used but was wondering if the R888 and NT-01 are any better since they are of newer design. From what I read, particularly your opinion and Curt's, the RA-1 might still be the better choice. I know Mike Cornelius is a Nitto fan and for that reason I was also wondering about that tire versus the other 2. However, as Jad noted, the jury is still out on that tire as few people have had experience with them. I may end up getting a set of Toyo RA-1 (if I can find them) for the 3-days at Willow Springs, complemented of course by Hoosier R6s for timed runs

Any other thoughts?

Having used all three, I think they are all very close. The RA1's need to be shaved, but seem to work until the cords show. The 888's have more tread, and thus last longer in theory, but the added tread seems to outlast the compound and they go away before cording which seems to be how the Nitto is as well. I doubt there is more than a couple tenths difference amoung the three and it seems to vary through the tire life as to which is fastest.

Now to really mess things up, R6's or 710's? My limited experience with these back to back make me like the 710's more, but I have don't have enough info to really tell. What does everyone think on that choice for timed runs?????

Otto wrote:Thank you Chuck! I read that thread and you are right, lots of information. I have no complaints about the Toyo RA-1, the only tire of the 3 that I have used but was wondering if the R888 and NT-01 are any better since they are of newer design. From what I read, particularly your opinion and Curt's, the RA-1 might still be the better choice. I know Mike Cornelius is a Nitto fan and for that reason I was also wondering about that tire versus the other 2. However, as Jad noted, the jury is still out on that tire as few people have had experience with them. I may end up getting a set of Toyo RA-1 (if I can find them) for the 3-days at Willow Springs, complemented of course by Hoosier R6s for timed runs

Any other thoughts?

Just remember that the Hoosiers are 4 point tires and the RA1 and Nitto are 2 point tires
You don't need to go any faster, I think a good street tire is all you need.

Greg

Jad wrote:Having used all three, I think they are all very close. The RA1's need to be shaved, but seem to work until the cords show. The 888's have more tread, and thus last longer in theory, but the added tread seems to outlast the compound and they go away before cording which seems to be how the Nitto is as well. I doubt there is more than a couple tenths difference amoung the three and it seems to vary through the tire life as to which is fastest.

Now to really mess things up, R6's or 710's? My limited experience with these back to back make me like the 710's more, but I have don't have enough info to really tell. What does everyone think on that choice for timed runs?????

I like the Hoosier R6 better than the 710's. In timed runs I think they are fairly close. In extended runs with many laps I find the R6 will not go away like the 710, especially on very hot days. The 710's tend to get greasy after several laps on a hot track. I've had both the R6 and A6 tires run for 25 minutes in 100+ temps and not get greasy or start to give up.

My 2 cents. As Greg said, you're fast enough on Toyo's.

FWIW it was a 710 tire that blew on my right rear at Fontana on the front straight at 130 MPH.

Otto:
We all took a vote and decided that you can only run on 400+ treadwear snow tires from now on!

ChuckS wrote:Otto:
We all took a vote and decided that you can only run on 400+ treadwear snow tires from now on!

With all of the offs Otto has those snow tires might come in handy.

I found the 710 to be a bit faster than the R6, but only when the 710 ws at its peak (fairly new, not too many heat cycles).
The 710 feels like a more "fragile" tire from a heat standpoint, and seemed to work best about the third or fourth lap of a session.
It also went away quicker (greasy). The R6 for me is more dependable, linear, predictable, and longer lasting overall. However
the R6 has its own fragility, and that relates to excessive sliding or flat-spotting. For those of us who are lucky enough to not have
ABS, it requires a very smooth brake pedal. After burning up $250 in a quarter of a second, I learned! Also, I would not describe
the 710 as tossable (like the RA-1 is), but the R6 feels to me like it benefits from a bit more tidiness in driving style. The R6 seems
a bit less forgiving on suspension settings - there's a fairly narrow camber range it likes for best performance and wear. Finally,
the 710 cannot be flipped on the rim, whereas the R6 is completely symetrical, making tire management easier with the R6.

On "Snickers" (IS/IP), I run RA-1, because they're cheap, and work with the car's lower power well.
"Butch" (II/V2) has R6s, mainly because they're the only tire in the size I use. If I drive pretty, the R6 works fairly well.

Otto,

It seems clear from others experience that performance of each of the 3 "R" tires are very close and it comes down to personal preference. I like the Nitto's vs. the RA1's for one, they feel a bit more stable to me and inspire more confidence and second, they are cheaper. Back to back use of both have resulted in similar lap times. I have not used the R888's yet.

At Topless Performance (no affiliation), the RA1's run $196 plus $20 for shaving. The Nitto's are $193 ready to go. As the Nitto's get down to 4/32's tread they act more like a slick than say the R888's which have more of a tread pattern throughout the life.

If you're looking for a good, economical tire try the Nitto. Or, as the others have noted, Otto, you may want to consider something in the 400 treadwear rating
Individual results may vary

Mike

Thank you guys for the feedback. As we all know, the importance of tire choice and tire management (as Kris puts it) cannot be overestimated. And yes, Greg the Hoosier R6s add 2 more points to the mix which I opted to trade for the 2-point camber plates I used to have, with very positive results. Having said that, I concur with what several of you have said about the relative fragility of the Hoosiers to flat-spotting. My spins at Buttonwillow cost me a full, relatively new set of Hoosiers, all flat-spotted. That would have never happened with the RA-1s. To ward from that risk in a car without ABS, and to extend the useful life of the tires, I am leaning towards getting a set of RA-1s for practice at Willow Springs after reading your opinions and also based on my own satisfactory experience with those tires. I have not tried Kumho V710s so cannot tell if they are any better than Hoosier R6s but at this point will stick with the Hoosiers, comforted by Paul's experience.

One aspect of tire choice that I have been paying a lot of attention to is the diameter of the tire because it impacts the gearing in the car (and resulting acceleration) depending on how tall they are. Surprisingly all the tires we are talking about have a different diameter for the given size so that can be a deciding factor. Weight is also a consideration and the sticky tires (Hoosier / V710) win hands down. Of course we also have to watch how that different weight impacts the overall weight of the vehicle and the compliance with minimum weight rules.

Last but not least, the cost factor. Sadly, if you only run Hoosiers, you can count on using up a set during a TT weekend.

Otto wrote:
Last but not least, the cost factor. Sadly, if you only run Hoosiers, you can count on using up a set during a TT weekend.

I have a set of R-6 tires on "Butch" that have run one full day at streets, the BWRP PCA time Trial, and the two-day POC event at WSIR.
they still have 50% tread left. Keep in mind that other than my one Dust-Ball display at bus-Stop, I have been uncharacteristically smooth.
Repeated slides and offs will shorten R-6 life. Indeed, the Toyo RA-1s are much mure durable for that sort of behavior.

Another consideration of tire diameter is height of the car's center of gravity. I run 15-inch tires with 23-inch diameters. It keeps the cars
nice and low, but I have to run the puny stock brakes. Depending on the track, it might make gearing worse (Buttonwillow, Streets) or better
(Big Willow, Laguna Seca), but the low COG is a benefit IMHO.

A6>slicks>R6>710s>shaved RA-1s>Nittos>R888 in decreasing order of stickiness

A6<710<R6<r888<Nittos<RA-1s shaved<RA-1s full tread. in increasing order of life (I did not include slicks b/c they vary depending on compound, brand etc)