DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

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DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby 325racer on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:43 pm

I know that extinguishers are required for DE events in all level vehicles.

My question is there a requirement as to what type it should be?? I know it should have a Metal Nozzle and bracket, but is there a spec on the rating?? IE. BC, ABC, etc?

Thanks,
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby ttweed on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:34 pm

325racer wrote:I know that extinguishers are required for DE events in all level vehicles.

My question is there a requirement as to what type it should be?? I know it should have a Metal Nozzle and bracket, but is there a spec on the rating?? IE. BC, ABC, etc?


This is in the Zone 8 rules which are available from the Rules page:
http://www.pcasdr.org/porsche_events/prepare/rules/index.php

Look under Part XIII-Safety Considerations, Section K:

K. A securely fastened 2.5 Halotron; 2-lb. Halon or 10-BC rated dry chemical fire extinguisher is required for Time Trials and DE. For parking lot courses, this requirement is waived for Street Stock and Stock classes. They are strongly recommended for all cars in all events. They must be fully charged and accessible to the driver. Any built-in or on-board system that meets these minimums is also acceptable. This may include Aqueous Film-Forming Foam (AFFF) systems.

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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Hotrod911T on Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:09 pm

Tom,

Maybe you know this or can point me in the right direction for an answer. In light of the recent unfortunate incident where a weekend racer back East died from burns after an apparent engine fire in his 944 or 951 ultimately engulfed his car before he could get out in time to avoid serious burns (I know the pin was left in the extinguisher), I have been thinking about installing an on-board AFFF fire suppression system in our car. A hand-held extinguisher is really intended to protect the driver and not the car and could probably only put out a small contained fire. Even after 3 or 4 larger extinguishers were used by corner marshals to no avail in the above incident, I am really thinking about the value of an AFFF system for better personal protection and hopefully preserving the car in the event of a fire. It has something to do with wanting to see my grandchildren grow up to adulthood.

Most of the popular systems I've seen are 2.3 - 2.4 liter bottles with 2 or 3 nozzles. Apparently, many drivers have installed these systems in their Porsches even though these smaller bottles are no longer approved by SCCA for newly registered cars. I found a statement on the Internet from one manufacturer that their 2.3 liter system was equivalent to 5-BC, which if I read the Zone 8 rules correctly, would not be permitted in lieu of a hand-held extinguisher because it is not rated 10-BC. I really don't want to add any more weight to the car than necessary, but is it your understanding that the AFFF systems have to be the same type as would be approved by SCCA (larger bottles in the range of 4 liters)? Is there anything definitive on a specific type of an-board systems that is approved by Zone 8 for time trialing and DE's?

You are one of the brains in the outfit, so I value your opinions and comments.

Thanks,

Rod Taylor
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby ttweed on Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:09 am

Hotrod911T wrote:... for better personal protection and hopefully preserving the car in the event of a fire. It has something to do with wanting to see my grandchildren grow up to adulthood.

[snipped]

...I really don't want to add any more weight to the car than necessary, but is it your understanding that the AFFF systems have to be the same type as would be approved by SCCA (larger bottles in the range of 4 liters)? Is there anything definitive on a specific type of an-board systems that is approved by Zone 8 for time trialing and DE's?


Rod-

There is no spec given beyond the one quoted above in the PCA Z8 rules for TT and DE events. On board systems are not addressed specifically, beyond that "any built-in or on-board system that meets these minimums is also acceptable," which I take to mean that it must meet the specified capacity and fire-type requirements of a 2# Halatron, 2.5# Halon, or 10BC dry chem extinguisher. Even in PCA club racing, the only requirement I can find in the rule book is: A 2-1/2 lb. or larger fire extinguisher capable of extinguishing B/C type fires, securely metal-to-metal mounted in the cockpit in a safe location convenient to the driver while seated and restrained is required. An on-board fire suppression system is strongly recommended.

However, specs for any safety system in race cars by sanctioning bodies are only a minimum. There is nothing to prevent you from going beyond the minimum if you believe it is necessary or prudent. Another example of this might be using a HANS device when it is not specifically required, but just recommended.

The SCCA GCRs specify the following regarding on-board systems:

9.3.22. FIRE SYSTEM
All cars shall be equipped with an On-Board Fire System except Showroom
Stock, Touring, Spec Miata, and Improved Touring.
A. On-Board Fire System Requirements
Cars registered after 1/1/09 shall comply with the following on-
board fire system requirements:
• Systems certified to SFI specification 17.1
• Those listed by the FIA on Technical List No. 16
The following information must be visible of the unit:
• Certification label
• Capacity
• Type of extinguishing agent
• Weight, or volume, of the extinguishing agent
The following is acceptable for cars registered before 1/1/09:
On-board fire systems shall use Halon 1301 or 1211, with
a five pound minimum capacity (by weight). Alternatively,
on-board fire systems may use AFFF or equivalent surfactant
foam material, 2.25 liter minimum capacity (by volume). All
AFFF fire system bottles shall incorporate a functional pressure
gauge and shall be marked with the manufacturer’s recommended
“filled weight.” CO2 cartridge propellant fire extinguishing
systems are permitted provided that the seal of the
manufacturer specified CO2 cartridge is not punctured and the
fire bottle is equal to the weight specified by the system manufacturer.
Cars shall meet the following regardless of registration date:
1. The fire system cylinder shall be securely mounted in such
a manner that it can be checked during a technical inspection
and may be removed for weighing periodically for
compliance to full weight shown on the cylinder. (Weight
is without valve assembly.)
2. Manual or automatic release is
allowed. The release mechanism
shall be within reach of the driver
when belted in the car.
3. All on-board fire systems shall be
identified with a circle “E” decal.
a. In GT and Production cars, two circle “E” decals may
be required – one at the release location and the
second on the outside bodywork in line with or as
near to the release location as possible.
b. In Formula and Sports Racing cars, a circle “E” decal
shall be located on the outside bodywork as near to
the release location as possible.
4. There shall be a minimum of two nozzle locations – one in
the driver’s compartment and one in either the engine area
or the fuel cell area. The nozzles shall be suitable for the
type of extinguishing agent used.
5. All AFFF fire system bottles shall incorporate a functional
pressure gauge. This does not apply to non-pressurized
AFFF systems with CO2 propellant.
6. The firing safety pin(s) shall be removed from all on-board
fire systems prior to going on track. It is recommended
that a warning tag be attached to the safety pin to remind
the driver to remove the safety pin before entering the
racing surface.
7. All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer’s
specifications.
B. Hand-Held Fire Extinguisher Requirements
The following are acceptable for Showroom Stock, Touring and
Improved Touring cars:
1. Halon 1301 or 1211, two (2) pound minimum capacity by
weight.
2. Dry chemical, two (2) pound minimum with a positive indicator
showing charge. Chemical: 10 BC Underwriters Laboratory
rating, potassium bicarbonate (Purple K) recommended,
1A10BC Underwriters Laboratory rating multipurpose, ammonium
phosphate and barium sulfate or Monnex.
3. The fire extinguisher shall be securely mounted in the cockpit.
All mounting brackets shall be metal and of the quick-release
type.


Your decision regarding what is acceptable risk is a personal one, and I would not presume to make any recommendation in that regard. The chance of such an incident occurring is small, but if the possibility of a car fire is motivating you to protect yourself further, than you might want to go to greater lengths than simply installing a bigger, heavier fire system. Think about and visualize the possible scenarios of such an emergency ahead of time, so that you can react properly should they ever occur. Things such as live practice at deploying the extinguishing system in an emergency might avoid detrimental panic reactions, and practice at exiting the car in a hurry when seated and fully restrained while holding your breath (one of the greatest dangers is inhaling toxic smoke or super-heated air), including simulating possible damage to the car such as the door not opening (exiting through the window) and/or simulating minor injury to an arm or leg while exiting. This might prove to be a more critical component of surviving an incident than the type and size of your fire system.

Just my $0.02-- YMMV,
TT
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Hotrod911T on Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:21 pm

Tom,

Thank you for the great amount of information, which is very informative and thought provoking. I appreciate the time you took to make all this information available to me and the other forum users.

One of the real driving forces behind my consideration of an on-board fire system is the desires of my co-driver (wife). We no longer do any time trialing and only run about 15 AX's and a few DE's a year, so I personally think the risk of a major fire is minimal and for the time being will probably keep the 2.5 # halotron extinguisher in our car. If we get back into time-trialing, I will definitely put in an on-board fire system in compliance with the new SCCA regulations.

Hope to see you again soon at one of the future events,

Rod
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby ttweed on Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:43 pm

Hotrod911T wrote:Tom,
Thank you for the great amount of information, which is very informative and thought provoking. I appreciate the time you took to make all this information available to me and the other forum users.

You're welcome, Rod. Now you just have to tell me where I can get one of those cool "Flat Six Inside" stickers that look like the Intel logo that you have on the back of your car. :rockon: :burnout:

TT
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby gocart on Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:09 am

If fire safety is your major concern, you might consider a fuel cell to replace your gas tank. If your gas tank ruptures and ignites you will have a big problem.

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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Hotrod911T on Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:10 pm

Gordon, thanks for the info but I now have a new 911 ST replica center-fill fuel tank from TRE, so I don't think I will be replacing it any time soon.

Tom, I got the decal from fastdecals.com. Do a search for "Flat Six Inside Decal" and you will find it. You can get it in just about any size or color you want.

Rod
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby gocart on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:24 am

Sounds like you have the gas tank issue covered. Thirty plus year old gas tanks can be a problem.
Another area of concern are the rubber fuel hoses that Porsche uses. I've had problems with them over the years and not just on my Porsche. Last year I had a one year old rubber fuel hose on my motor crack on my Diamler Chrysler, and I had bought it at the dealer! No fire, I was lucky. I've had two hose failures on my 911. One was the oil line from the tank to the motor, lucky I didn't loose my motor. The other was the gas vapor hose, which caught fire! Luckily I put it out right away and there was no damage to the car.
I since replaced all the hoses on my Porsche with Aeroquip stainless hose from Earl's. On the fuel system I just used the stock hose clamps, which seem to work just fine.

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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Michael Dolphin on Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:14 pm

Tom, thank you for your thoughtful, considerate and well-reasoned contributions to this discussion. You still continue to amaze me in the depth of your dedication to our members...
Michael Dolphin
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Brad Roberts on Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:57 am

Electronic fire suppression is the ONLY way to go. Multiple nozzle kits. Two for the engine compartment both aimed at fuel rails or carbs, one pointing at drivers crotch from under the dash and one pointing at the gas tank. They really are not that expensive when you think about..well.. your life..

The SPA system:

Image

The 2.25 (which appears illegal in PCA) ships with two nozzles and one tee

The 3.375 ships with three nozzles and two tees

The 4.00 ships with 6 nozzles 5 tees..


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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby ChuckS on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:45 am

Brad,
What are approximate price points for each of these?

Thanks!
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby Brad Roberts on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:53 am

The 4.00 system runs around $650 then a few hours to install. They go down from there!

3.75 system is $475

You can arm/disarm the system with a small switch that comes in the kit. This way you don't accidentally set it off while doing other stuff to the car.

Typically, we would mount a push button on the outside of the car and a push button for the inside (for the driver)


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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby 325racer on Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:05 am

Alternatly the Mechanical systems are about $300ish for a 4L.


What I heard about the Incident on the east coast was that the vehicle had a full fire system, but the Pin was still in place and the driver tried multiple times to pull the cable.

There were unfortunatly several things he could have done. 1. Make sure all fire suppression systems are Armed (pull pin, flip switch, etc). 2. Try once to activate fire system, then get the F outta the car!!!!!!!!
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Re: DE Fire Extinguisher Requirements??

Postby 993Panzer on Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:50 am

I know that PCA and POC both tell drivers if their car dies or crashes to stay in their cars unless they are on fire, then get out as fast as possible if you are on fire. It is the responsibility of the driver to make sure they can get out of the car quickly. They should practice this either in the garage/paddock area or at home. Keep in mind that the drivers door may not be able to open, you may not be able to slide your seat back if you have to adjust it when you get in. You may have to exit through the passenger side door or window. You should practice this. This is your life and you should be prepared to save it.

As far as mechanical fire systems go I know of an incident last year at Laguna Seca where the back of a car caught on fire. The car was equipped with a mechanical fire system. The system was armed and the driver pulled it 3 times before it went off. The driver said it took a really really hard pull to set off the fire suppression system. This is something to consider when buying and installing a system.

When we go out to drive we need to use a check list similar to pilots preflight check list. Good habits will keep you safe, don't forget to arm the fire system before you start the car etc.... You also need to disarm the system after returning to the garage or paddock and do whatever else you have on your post driving check list. Safety is ultimately the responsibility of the driver. Create you pre and post driving list and follow it every time you drive. It will become habit and could save you in the event of an unfortunate incident.

My 2 cents, you're mileage may vary.

Drive safe.
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