928s performance upgrades

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928s performance upgrades

Postby Red928s on Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:33 pm

hey all, Im looking for some ideas for my 1985 928s. I'm looking to do some performance upgrades, its fast and handles awesome already but i know it can be much better. what are the common upgrades?
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Postby Jad on Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:11 pm

First upgrade, Driver. The car has huge potential, but it takes a good driver to get the car to perform. Take the performance driving school, have instructors ride with you at AX and read books to learn terms and the basics.

Second upgrade, driver. This isn't a joke, don't waste time and money changing the car, just spend time and money learning the car and driving techniques. If you keep changing and modifying the car, you can't really learn to drive as things are constantly changing. There isn't a class in the PCA were a good driver in the worst car won't easily beat an OK driver in the best car. Look at the times and see how many of the top stock 914's and 944's beat a lot of the Boxsters and 996's. Trust me, the difference from a stock 944 to a 996 is MUCH greater than anything you can do to your 928.

Third upgrade, ask the driver. Once you have time and experience, you won't need to ask others what to do, you will know that you need...such as more front grip, or less body, or something else that fits YOUR style, not someone elses. Even in spec series, everyone sets up their cars differently and there is no right answer.

If you really want to waste money and slow your learning, I would say the starting points for mods are usually tires, corner balancing and alignment, none of which are worth a fraction compared to seat time and seat time is significantly more fun 8) . That said, do be sure the belts and brakes are good and the car runs well with all maintenance performed.

See you on the 18th?
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Re: 928s performance upgrades

Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:16 pm

Red928s wrote:....its fast and handles awesome already but i know it can be much better. what are the common upgrades?


I'll have to agree with Jad. Your quote seems to say volumes about the car. Now, maybe work on saying "....but I know I can be much better." Whenyou start saying that, you won't need to ask us how to improve the car. You'll know the answer :wink: .

So, come join us at the Autocrosses, Performance Driving School, and even at Tech Sessions. Education will be your strongest ally, and the best improvement the car could experience.
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Postby kary on Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:24 pm

I think it is mighty arrogant of us to assume that this individual needs more track time rather than upgrades. It could be the case this individual is a newbie and knows nothing, but on the other hand it could be the case this individual knows a lot about cars.

Why not ask what their expereince is and make appropriate recommendations at that point once we know the whole picture?

It also might be the case that this 928 has an old suspension which would not be very useful to learn with. Part of the fun for many folks with Porsche's is to customize them for track, for street, or for Concour events. Let's be more supportive and answer people's questions. Waddaya say?
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Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:52 pm

Well, Kary, you have a point. We don't know a lot about the driver OR the car, now do we.

On the other hand, it's been my experience (limited as it is) that the "more experienced" drivers go to their mechanical gurus and tell them what issues/problems they want to solve (too much push, too loose, poor threshold braking/brake fade, poor hole-shot excelleration at A-X's, excessive tire wear on outside of front tires, etc.) and discuss solutions with the mechanic. The "less experienced" driver might find him/herself seeking solutions to "performance upgrades" through club websites, forums like Rennlist, PCA, SCCA etc., because they want more out of their cars, but aren't sure what "more" they might be looking for.

So, I'll hang this out there: "Red928s" - how much performance driving experience do you have? How long have you had the car? What are the current mod's on the car? Do you think there are any driver/operator improvements that could be made, or are you seeking strictly mechanical improvements? Details, I want details.

Thanks, Kary. Point well taken.
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Postby Jad on Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:57 pm

I have yet to meet the driver who is better than the car and wouldn't improve more by working on the driver and worry less about spending money on tires. Do slicks make you a better driver? No, they may reduce your lap times, but they do not make for a better driver, they just help you brag about how fast you are.

Since I am not aware of him doing any events with us, even if he does have experience elsewhere, he should come out and learn what kind of tracks PCA sets and get some seat time in our events before making performance mods. If he wins the class every time, then mods to be competitive in higher classes might be in order, but once you start blaming the car, you keep spending money to go fast instead of blaming the driver. Never heard anyone say, "boy I wish I had spent more money on this car, that would have really improved my driving more then wasting time driving".

As Dan said, if he has to ask what to do, he needs more seat time as we ALL do. Especially true in a very powerful car like a 928.
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Postby kary on Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:15 pm

Jad wrote:I have yet to meet the driver who is better than the car and wouldn't improve more by working on the driver and worry less about spending money on tires. Do slicks make you a better driver? No, they may reduce your lap times, but they do not make for a better driver, they just help you brag about how fast you are.


Gee Jad, seems I hit a nerve here. You want to make this personal about me and slicks...huh. I do not recall making this a personal thing against anyone that posted here. Merely suggested that we inquire before deciding what skills people have.

Well in fact, slicks do make you a far better driver as it is far more difficult to take them to the edge than a street or DOT legal tire. I ran street tires for some years, then ran DOT legal tires for some years and now am running both DOT legal tires and slicks. While I still learn more every year, I also learn about the capabilities of tires and how I can set up my car to drive it in new ways making my skills stronger in many situations. So I do not agree with you that they only make the car faster. Though I am sure your reasoning for your times is because you do not have sticky tires?

I talk with people every day about upgrades for their cars when they call asking what can I do to go faster. I always ask them what the car is set up like today, what driving experience they have, what big track laps times they have if applicable. This is very useful in making a recommendation that sometimes does result in making a decision not to modify anything. Other times it makes perfect sense to make upgrades. There are other factors that are beyond lap times. All I was suggesting here is that we find out before making blind recommendations, right or wrong.

I also belong to many boards, which is where information is shared about some really trick mods or car setups in suspension. This is no longer reserved for the specialty shop in a dark garage. The world wide web has opened this up. I find this posters question to be the norm these days. In fact, it is prudent to query many to see what is going on these days for certain model cars. This poster deserves a reply to his technical questions, which is after all where he posted it! And rightfully so.

Jad, I would have expected more from you on this reply, but obviously your are harboring something to have responded in this way....at least Dan caught the idea of my post. Thanks Dan!
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Postby Red928s on Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:17 pm

Hey guys, yeah sorry for not being more clear about my question. Although i do admit i do lack experience with this car in particular. Most of my experience with racing was learned on a Yamaha r6. I owned one for about 3 years. I have taken racing classes back in my home town of san jose as well as a week of skip barber racing school and ive raced indoor carts before, but that is my expedrience with cars.

If anybody is familiar with highway 17 in santa cruz(curves and hills) and skyline road, that is what i drove about 6 times a week when i first got this car which was about one year ago.

more specifically i was curious about a more racy suspension and maybe some simple engine upgrades. When i drive i get the feeling that it is really being restricted. Its already too much for me so i just want to make it feel more tight and tuned not necessarily more powerful . The car has 35,000 original miles on it so i really want to take car of it. The setup is completely stock besides a new sound system and paint job.

finally hell yes i will be making it out to the Auto crosses, so no worries im sure ill be seeing your cars out there soon. take care
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Postby ttweed on Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:45 am

kary wrote: Gee Jad, seems I hit a nerve here. You want to make this personal about me and slicks...huh.
Kary-
I didn't read Jad's reply as a personal attack on you. You aren't the only PCA guy using slicks, ya know. I thought he meant Steve G. and Ralph L.! :D

I also belong to many boards, which is where information is shared about some really trick mods or car setups in suspension. This is no longer reserved for the specialty shop in a dark garage. The world wide web has opened this up. I find this posters question to be the norm these days.
I also participate in many of these forums and my experience is Jad's remarks are right on the norm for this kind of post. When people ask how to make their cars faster, it is very common for someone to reply "Work on the loose nut behind the wheel."

For Red928s- I would suggest talking to Mark Anderson at 928 International in Anaheim. Contact info is on their website at http://928intl.com/. He has done more in developing 928s for competition than anyone I am aware of.

When you come to an autox, ask them to assign you Greg Phillips as an instructor. He is mad about those cars and can show you a lot. When you start time-trialing, look up Mike Avitt in his 928 and pick his brain. He is a really nice guy, a great driver and his car is really fast.

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Postby kary on Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:06 am

Tom, I think you and Dan understand my original post. Which was very simple in nature to contribute to helping people not telling them they need more seat time. In fact what people might need is good instruction, not seat time. Just doing the same thing over and over again will yield the same result!

Heck, we all need driving lessons not seat time, so nothing earth shattering there!
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Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:39 am

kary wrote:

Heck, we all need driving lessons not seat time, so nothing earth shattering there!


Kary, I need both!! Instruction for new ideas; seat time to practice. My martial arts instructor used to say of a particular "move":

10 times = learned
100 times = known
1,000 times = understood
10,000 times = praticed
100,000 times = reflexive
1,000,000 times = perfected

So, I'm still in the learning stage! :shock:

A look "outside the box" finds some irony in this thread: We have a former CDI encouraging more learning and driver education, and a supplier encouraging an emphasis on possible car needs. Should it be any different? :roll: I don't say this to be cruel to either Jad or Kary, but I see a subconcious influence in both their arguments. :roll:

Just my 2-cents.

See you on the 18th.
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Postby Jad on Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:57 am

Kary,

No nerve here, not sure your issue :roll: .

If you read my post, it says, take lessons, then practice, determine needs and then fix the weak link?

What exactly do you disagree with in this list and who would not be helped following that strategy? If I want to learn threshold braking I would watch and learn the technique, practice it, see how well the car does it and upgrade appropriately if needed.

How is that an attack on you? Is it because you have upgrades therefore you think I am saying you can't drive? Ummm I have after ~7 years upgraded as well in case you haven't noticed but I wouldn't recommend going from karts and a Yamaha to Mike Avitts 928 if you expect to learn to drive well? As I recall, you started with a stock car and learned and got addicted from there. The car is the last upgrade after you know what you can do and what the car does and doesn't do.

Red928:

You said on the road the car feels too soft. It may be, but if you are going to ax primarily, you want a fairly soft suspension so the car will rotate in tight ax corners. If you timetrial and run on big tracks, then you need a much stiffer suspension. As I said originally, come out, do some events and ride with people like Greg Phillips who has a mildly modified 928. Talk with people and decide what you want to do with the car and what you need to learn. You have some good experience so you will likely improve faster than some people, and none of this is meant to put you down in any way, but despite what Kary said, seat time is the key to going fast for everyone, not modifying the car.

I hope to make the event on the 18th and will be in either a black 944 turbo or a black 996 targa, come by and say hello!
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Postby kary on Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:32 am

Dan Chambers wrote:
kary wrote:
A look "outside the box" finds some irony in this thread: We have a former CDI encouraging more learning and driver education, and a supplier encouraging an emphasis on possible car needs. Should it be any different? :roll: I don't say this to be cruel to either Jad or Kary, but I see a subconcious influence in both their arguments. :roll:

Just my 2-cents.

See you on the 18th.


Dan, I have no ability to make any sort of suggestion around a 928 so your thought of me supplying anything here is off the mark. Unless of course someone would like a transponder, a race seat or harnesses? I beleive those would help drivers on a track, particularly in their driving technique. As I said, a regularly question people about why they want modifications and more times than not end up recommending no modification as the gains would not be useful for them. This is better business in my opinion in the long run.
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Postby ajackson on Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:53 am

Kary: I don't think he was questioning your motive. I think he was making a joke about the fact that the guy that sells parts thinks you should buy parts and the guy that teaches driving thinks you need more driving instruction (neither necessarily from the person giving the recommendation).

Knowing why someone wants mods is definatly a good question to ask though. Things like seats and harnesses don't make the car faster but make performance driving so much more enjoyable. Things like giant turbos with lots of lag (early 930's) may suck for the track but can be a blast on the street merging onto a freeway. Really sticky tires aren't worth hardly anything on a car that is driven in the rain or around town (don't corner at the limit anyway) but are one of the easiest upgrades for track junkies.

I do agree with the post that says something like "when you are ready for upgrades, you'll know what you want." After someone has been around a a scene for a while (ax, track, whatever), they will see what other people have, ask them about it, find out what good shops are, etc. With that said, I can see the answer to the very general question of "what upgrades do I need?" being not on the forum, but a recommendation to get out somewhere with your car and meet people doing things you want to do with it.

That was way more long winded than when I started...
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Postby kary on Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:57 am

Jad wrote:Kary,

What exactly do you disagree with in this list and who would not be helped following that strategy? If I want to learn threshold braking I would watch and learn the technique, practice it, see how well the car does it and upgrade appropriately if needed.

How is that an attack on you? Is it because you have upgrades therefore you think I am saying you can't drive? Ummm I have after ~7 years upgraded as well in case you haven't noticed but I wouldn't recommend going from karts and a Yamaha to Mike Avitts 928 if you expect to learn to drive well? As I recall, you started with a stock car and learned and got addicted from there. The car is the last upgrade after you know what you can do and what the car does and doesn't do.



Jad, to answer a few of your questions:

First, I do not disagree with the notion of seat time, what I have an issue with is the lack of understanding of the individuals ability and car set up. I beleive these are important factors in crafting a response to someone's post.

Second, how is this an attack on me? Well I would ask what does having slicks and bragging about lap times have to do with this thread? Completely off topic and irrelevant to the original posters request and my original reply. If I took this wrong I apologize, but I still fail to see the relevance to Red928's post given the lack of knowledge of red928 car and experience.

Third, you are correct about my progression in this sport and I encourage others to do the same out of safety for them and those of us on the track with them. Your approach, while I agree with the sentiment, needs to answer the posters questions which can include get seat time, getting instruction, or anything else you deem necessary, but it should include an answer to their question, otherwise what is the point? The answer to his question is not to drive more, though it might be part of the answer.

Lastly, I beleive one of the reasons we get little particpation on this board as compared to other boards (again, one of the reasons), is how we treat people and their questions. We should not be taking anyone for granted about their car, their ability and should be willing to provide complete answers from our experience. Otherwise, for people lijke red928, they will just choose not to participate on our board. I see many readers of these threads but few posters. Could it be that we are scaring folks away needlessly for the reason above or for other reasons?

I am glad to see that you and others responded to Red928 question after some debate, as I do not have any answers nor products to offer even if Red928 could use them effectively (seats and harnesses notwithstanding!)
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