PCA SDR

At Saturdays AutoX my FIA 6 point belts were questioned because they are a Not Valid After 2010, with a Manufacture date of Feb 2005. The Tech guys said they would need to be changed for the next event. For my BMW Club Racing I was under the understanding that the belts were good till the end of the year.

I have double checked with both BMW and PCA rules and both are similar that belts are, whether SFI or FIA are good until the end of the Calendar year, based on Date of Manufacture.

Zone 8, Section XIII.B, Paragraph 4

"Five and six-point restraint systems over five (5) years old; of questionable condition, design, material or mounting; which are not installed according to the manufacturer’s directions; which eliminate substantial contact of the lap
AX, DE & TT Page 24
belt with the occupant; or which are in any way unsafe; will be disallowed. Belt age is measured from the last day of the year of manufacture (Dec 31)."

Mathew

You are correct and that is what I told the tech team member when he asked me about your car.
Sorry if the info did not get to you after I talked to him.

Saturday was a really crazy day for tech issues all day.
Sorry if you got lost in the shuffle.

No worries,

It was worth the inquiry for my Club Race stuff anyway. I thought it was the Year not the month, but was good to clarify.

So SFI belts with any date of manufacture in 2005 are good for the rest of the year? If that's so, we need to make sure the DE/TT Tech Inspection folks are clear on this point...

rshon wrote:So SFI belts with any date of manufacture in 2005 are good for the rest of the year? If that's so, we need to make sure the DE/TT Tech Inspection folks are clear on this point...

There will be retraining/reminders sent to the crew before the next event.
Official retraining to follow.

Is there a limit on age for the stock 3 point seat belt for Autocross?

If not, it seems a little odd to me that the stock 3 point belts have no age limit, but a 5 or 6 point harness does.

Bob Gagnon wrote:Is there a limit on age for the stock 3 point seat belt for Autocross?

If not, it seems a little odd to me that the stock 3 point belts have no age limit, but a 5 or 6 point harness does.

Yes, it's in the rules, and I think it is 20 years for 3 point stock. Quite a bit longer than 5/6 point. I understand it has to do with construction standards and ratings for the materials etc.

galis wrote:

Bob Gagnon wrote:Is there a limit on age for the stock 3 point seat belt for Autocross?

If not, it seems a little odd to me that the stock 3 point belts have no age limit, but a 5 or 6 point harness does.

Yes, it's in the rules, and I think it is 20 years for 3 point stock. Quite a bit longer than 5/6 point. I understand it has to do with construction standards and ratings for the materials etc.

The answer to all your questions is in the Z-8 rules and were changed from 2009 to 2010.
http://zone8.pca.org/rules/2010/2010Z8Rules.pdf

I read the red below to mean that there is no age limit on OEM belts where they are legal for all Autocross classes and Street Stock and Stock classes for Time Trial events and that only a visual assessment of condition is made at tech inspection for an OEM belt.

However a 5 or 6 point harness must be replaced at 5 years no matter what the condition for all competitors using one in any Autocross or TT class whether required in the class or not.

It still seems a little odd to me that someone with a good condition 5 year old, 5 or 6 point harness will be turned away at an Autocross tech inspection when a 25 year old OEM belt in good conditon will be passed. I can see this criterion for a Time Trial, but an Autocross at Qualcomm???

A. For all Autocross entrants and Time Trial / DE entrants in classes Street Stock and Stock, at least fully functional OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) style 3 point seatbelts are required. Belts that are visibly frayed, damaged or dysfunctional must be replaced with new belts.
Two point belts are acceptable for Autocross if the car did not originally come with seatbelts or only came with 2 point belts OEM. For Time Trial / DE three point belts are required (when the vehicle does not require a 5 or 6 point harness).
B. For Time Trial and DE, five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers and passengers running in any Prepared class or higher and are strongly recommended for all entrants. 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed at Autocross events, but they are not required.
Harnesses are required to be SFI or FIA approved for competition and mounted in the manufacturer approved configuration. Any harness approved for club racing is acceptable when installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. Evidence of this approval shall be provided by the driver, if necessary.
While an approved competition seat is not required on its own, many harness manufacturers require it for proper harness installation. If harnesses are installed and the seat is not an SFI or FIA approved competition seat, the entrant needs to bring documentation to prove that the installation follows the manufacturer’s instructions.
Five and six-point restraint systems over five (5) years old; of questionable condition, design, material or mounting; which are not installed according to the manufacturer’s directions; which eliminate substantial contact of the lap belt with the occupant; or which are in any way unsafe; will be disallowed. Belt age is measured from the last day of the year of manufacture (Dec 31).

Bob Gagnon wrote:I read the red below to mean that there is no age limit on OEM belts where they are legal for all Autocross classes and Street Stock and Stock classes for Time Trial events and that only a visual assessment of condition is made at tech inspection for an OEM belt.

However a 5 or 6 point harness must be replaced at 5 years no matter what the condition for all competitors using one in any Autocross or TT class whether required in the class or not.

It still seems a little odd to me that someone with a good condition 5 year old, 5 or 6 point harness will be turned away at an Autocross tech inspection when a 25 year old OEM belt in good conditon will be passed. I can see this criterion for a Time Trial, but an Autocross at Qualcomm???

A. For all Autocross entrants and Time Trial / DE entrants in classes Street Stock and Stock, at least fully functional OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) style 3 point seatbelts are required. Belts that are visibly frayed, damaged or dysfunctional must be replaced with new belts.
Two point belts are acceptable for Autocross if the car did not originally come with seatbelts or only came with 2 point belts OEM. For Time Trial / DE three point belts are required (when the vehicle does not require a 5 or 6 point harness).
B. For Time Trial and DE, five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers and passengers running in any Prepared class or higher and are strongly recommended for all entrants. 5 or 6-point harnesses are allowed at Autocross events, but they are not required.
Harnesses are required to be SFI or FIA approved for competition and mounted in the manufacturer approved configuration. Any harness approved for club racing is acceptable when installed according to the manufacturer’s instructions. Evidence of this approval shall be provided by the driver, if necessary.
While an approved competition seat is not required on its own, many harness manufacturers require it for proper harness installation. If harnesses are installed and the seat is not an SFI or FIA approved competition seat, the entrant needs to bring documentation to prove that the installation follows the manufacturer’s instructions.
Five and six-point restraint systems over five (5) years old; of questionable condition, design, material or mounting; which are not installed according to the manufacturer’s directions; which eliminate substantial contact of the lap belt with the occupant; or which are in any way unsafe; will be disallowed. Belt age is measured from the last day of the year of manufacture (Dec 31).

Bob
Yes.
This is a really involved discussion that I do not want to get to deeply into as it has been over discussed over the last few years.
But here is the Readers Digest version:
A SS or Stock car with a stock seat must run stock belts.
5/6 points are not allowed with a stock seat.
5/6 points must be used and installed according to manufacturers directions... and they say it is a 5 year lifespan.
Legal mumbo jumbo maybe... But that's the way it is.
BTW- I have seen more cars hit immovable concrete in one memorable year at the Q than I have seen in 10 years of Time Trialing.
Let's not kid ourselves that there is no risk of injury in Autocross.

So SFI belts with any date of manufacture in 2005 are good for the rest of the year? If that's so, we need to make sure the DE/TT Tech Inspection folks are clear on this point...

There will be retraining/reminders sent to the crew before the next event.
Official retraining to follow.

YES, we can "handle the truth"
i (like everybody should) printed the 36 page zone 8 2010 Competion Rules.
lot's of good stuff...don't skip section XIII

Bob
Yes.
This is a really involved discussion that I do not want to get to deeply into as it has been over discussed over the last few years.

+1 "what he said"


DQ

I can see the strange situation that has developed since the SFI requires 2 year replacement of harnesses while the FIA allows up to 5 years for a "Club Racing" harness which has probably promoted lively discussion at a rules meeting.

Then, there is no equivalent "sanctioning body" that has recommendations for an OEM harness' lifespan, although the same deterioration I am sure occurs in the OEM harness since they are of the same materials, either polyester or polyamide, as a racing harness. Not to mention the difference in lifespan of a Polyester versus Polyamide belt which is not noted by SFI or FIA - they are both treated the same, although polyester has a higher initial strengtn and a longer strength life span plus is less sensitive to UV degradation and water absorption than polyamide is.

Anyway, I am still struck by the irony that I can replace my 2002 Simpson, polyamide, 6 point with my original Porsche 1992 OEM 3 point harness and be "good to go" at tech for the next autocross I go to. I know which is safer of the two.

It would seem to me that if safety is the concern, a cogent argument could be made that all belts, OEM or an aftermarket harness, should be changed at the FIA's 5 years maximum, although SFI would argue 2 years for a change.

But hey, I guess I am a little bummed that I need both a new helmet and now a new harness to drive an event...

Though I am sure the sanctioning bodies did extensive long term testing on the life span of a harness rig and I am sure that due to the repeated higher G-loads places on them due to the type of driving they are used for, it really boils down to planned obsolescence. Not to get too conspiracy minded, it would not surprise me if there were not some back room deal at some point between the companies and the sanctioning groups.

The manufactures will tell you that the nylon used in racing harnesses deteriorates in the atmosphere and will lose about 40% (IIRC) of its strength in five years. I've seen graphs of this published.
OEM seatbelts are made of polyester.
Of course one then wonders why harnesses aren't also made of polyester.

All Schroth harnesses are polyester. The most expensive Simpson harnesses are polyester. I am sure there are others.