Car point/sway bar question.

[Mmagus]

Ok, I am doing my best to be as point conscious and accurate as possible on my car class. While talking with Jerry today about our possible classes this came up. I had what I thought to be an option rear sway on my car, only to find that it wasn't and I am replacing it with a 18mm. I mentioned that with my 26.8mm that would put me with all stock option bars, to which he mentioned that it was an M030 option and would I have to take 20 points for just the one bar? Then he looked at a parts catalog and found in that catalog it was stock on the 944S2.

With 944's coming in SO many different flavors and with SO many options from the factory, just which ones ARE still considered a stock option....and which are "Non-Adjustable: non-stock Factory " requiring 15 points?

Thanks
Mark, Jerry and the rest of us wading through the process

[Cajundaddy]

I'll take a stab at it. The 944 gurus will probably know this with more clarity though.

Question: Were the sway bars currently on your car available as a stock option on your specific model and year and can you document this?
Yes= 0 points
No= 15 points

Adding 944 bar/bars to a 924 S takes 15 points. Adding a complete M030 package for your specific model and year including springs and sways takes 20 points. Adding mix and match Porsche springs and sways from other model years takes 15 points for sways and 20 points for non stock springs.

This is my best guess

[rshon]

For the '86-'88 924S, stock swaybars were 20mm front, 14mm rear, M404/M030 option was 23mm front, M030 20mm rear. At best, using bigger 944/968 bars would be 15 points so long as neither was adjustable. I believe (Tom can correct me) that M030 944 bars could/would be considered non-stock Factory. That's why the whole M030 suspension takes points.

I would just leave your adjustable sways and stiffer non-stock torsion bars on and take the points, as the car will be more fun to drive (especially at race tracks), unless there's a car or person in a class you're trying to stay below (or are you chasing someone else's low point total?)...

p.s. Plenty of us check the Technical Board. It just needs more LOVE...

[Steve Grosekemper]

Mark,

It doesn't matter what sway bars were available for a 944; you have a 924S and that is different.
Look at the rules document and it states model Ranges:
IV MODEL RANGES
924: 924 1977-82
924S 1987-88
924 Turbo All
944: 944 All
944S All
944S2 1989-91
944 Turbo All
968: 968 All

You can only use the items within your model range
Your 924S came with a 20mm front sway bar or a 23mm front sway bar if it had M030 option.
In the rear it came with a 14mm sway bar or a 20mm for Mo30 option (Have only seen this on a 924S LM - Don't ask)

An 88 944 can have the above options plus 21.5/24/25.5mm bars.
But you must take points for all larger than the stock sizes.
None of this matters for 944 Spec.

a 968 Mo30 rear bar is the only factory adjustable bar. (and not in your model line).

Simple right?

Check your email, I sent you a picture of the factory parts diagram showing the front sway bar for your car

[Cajundaddy]

"You can only use the items within your model range
Your 924S came with a 20mm front sway bar or a 23mm front sway bar if it had M030 option."

Now I am confused Steve. Does this mean he must take 15 points for running non-adjustable 944 sways or will his car be illegal and banned from the event?

[Mmagus]

Steve, Thanks that is the very clear answer I was trying to find out. If I run the sways I intended on I will have to take 15 points for them.

Now I am confused Steve. Does this mean he must take 15 points for running non-adjustable 944 sways or will his car be illegal and banned from the event?

If i were intentionally trying to sneek an illegal set up through then yes, my run for that day should be banned and I should be re-classified for future runs, or correct things. I am ok with that.

With all that said, it seems its hello CC3 for me, as taking him down to meet CC2 would just be too much fun factor taken out of Tuffy.

Thanks!
Mark

[rshon]

Look at the rules document and it states model Ranges:

Steve -
That's the problem. They took down all the proposed 2012 rules from the Zone 8 website roughly the same time they put the calculator webpage up. You must have saved yourself a copy. Even the last draft would have helped us to better understand the rules, rather than relying on the occasionally cryptic descriptions on the points calculator...

[Steve Grosekemper]

Look at the rules document and it states model Ranges:

Steve -
That's the problem. They took down all the proposed 2012 rules from the Zone 8 website roughly the same time they put the calculator webpage up. You must have saved yourself a copy. Even the last draft would have helped us to better understand the rules, rather than relying on the occasionally cryptic descriptions on the points calculator...

No problem at all. That rule is unchanged from the 2011 rules set.
(which is still up)
Really unchanged from the last 10 years of rules.
And yes I save all the rule sets.

[rshon]

Here is the guideline embedded in the Car Classification webpage. It's a little different:

Factory vs. Aftermarket upgrades

The half points option only applies to factory options that were available for the model series of the car. Putting a factory 911 sway bar on a 914 will incur 30 points, not 15, however the 924S is in the 944 series, so it can upgrade to a 944 bar for 15, not 30.

If an aerodynamic modification has been made, both ends of the car should be improved to preserve balance.

The following chart shall be used to determine if an upgrade to a non-stock Factory part is within the same model series as the vehicle. This is different from the Model Series chart for used for Update/Backdate.

356: All
911/912: 1965-77
911SC: All
911 Carrera: All
964: All
993: All
996: All
997: All
930: All
911 Turbo 1986-89
964 Turbo All
993 Turbo All
996 Turbo All
997 Turbo All
914: All
924: All except 924S
924 Turbo: All
928: All
924S/944: All
944 Turbo: All
968: All
Boxster: All
Cayman: All
Cayenne: All
Cayenne Turbo: All
Panamera: All
Panamera Turbo: All
Carrera GT: All

[ttweed]

Here is the guideline embedded in the Car Classification webpage. It's a little different:
"The half points option only applies to factory options that were available for the model series of the car. Putting a factory 911 sway bar on a 914 will incur 30 points, not 15, however the 924S is in the 944 series, so it can upgrade to a 944 bar for 15, not 30."

If it is true that all the revised proposals for 2012 that were forwarded to the Zone 8 presidents were approved, as Tom B. said earlier in the "2012 Car Classification" thread, then this example language is now obsolete and needs to be revised on the car classification site. The new proposal was:

Non-stock sway bars
Non-adjustable (non-stock factory or aftermarket) 15
Adjustable 30

The proposal contended that adjustability was the primary advantage of sway bars (for tuning to different track conditions) and needed to be penalized greater than fixed bars, factory or aftermarket. A non-stock or aftermarket bar that is non-adjustable takes only 15. As long as the 911 sway bar that was put on the 914 in the example above is non-adjustable, it would incur only 15 points, not 30. It does not have to conform to the model series chart--in this case, that is only for determining if the bar is a 0-point upgrade, which it can only be if it was available in the applicable model series.

Tom B. can correct me if I am wrong in this interpretation of the latest proposal that was approved, but this does represent a fundamental change from the rule used in previous years, and even from the original 2012 rules that were published tentatively in 2010 and used in our 2011 TT series last year.

It seems to me that under this latest revised rule, Mark can use ANY non-adjustable bar that will fit his car for only 15 points, whether it comes from a 944 or even the aftermarket. If he chooses one from the 924S model series, it will be 0 points. If it is non-stock and adjustable (such as the 968 M030 rear bar Steve mentions above), it is 30 points.

TT

[tb911]

Yep, I think Mr Tweed found another correction (the example) that needs to be made. This is why the rules doc was taken down, lots of editing to be done on them. I hope to have them up again soon

Thanks Tom!

tb

[rshon]

So does this mean a 996 or 997 can use factory GT3 sway bars (which are adjustable)from their respective years for 0 points because they were stock and in the same model series? Or are ALL adjustable sway bars 30 points, even GT3's which came with them?

[Steve Grosekemper]

So does this mean a 996 or 997 can use factory GT3 sway bars (which are adjustable)from their respective years for 0 points because they were stock and in the same model series? Or are ALL adjustable sway bars 30 points, even GT3's which came with them?

Russel you are always thinking ouside the box...
To answer your question - NO.
A 996/997 does not run in the same class as a GT-3 so no parts exchanging.
GT-3 base points are higher to take in to account all the GT-3 mods.

So GT-3 sway bars on anything onther than a GT-3 is points.
On a GT-3 they are free for the GT-3.

[rshon]

Not trying to go outside of the box, just trying to understand the new box, which is a little confusing. Before the latest clarification, I think my understanding and your understanding on 924S sway bars were essentially the same.

It used to be that "stock" meant "stock". Even for a particular model and year, just upgrading to one component of a factory M030 package meant taking points, for say sway bars or springs. Now it seems less obvious.

The car classification web page now says:

"Factory vs. Aftermarket Upgrades -
The half points option only applies to factory options that were available for the model series of the car."

But goes on to say:

"Sway Bar Upgrades -
Sway bar upgrades for non-adjustable sway bars within a model series are free of points. Non-adjustable sway bars from outside of your model series, or after market, are half points. Non-stock adjustable sway bars are 30 points, regardless of source."

So to be clear, I guess this means that "stock" now means any factory sway bar from any car in the model series, and we've now ELIMINATED penalty points for those (non-adjustable) sway bar upgrades, and since the 924S is now in the 944 model series, it can use ANY (non-adjustable) 944 sway bar and takes no points. This is clearly different from any earlier understanding we've had.

BTW, the GT3 (and GT2) base points DO NOT take into account any of the suspension, brakes, or aero upgrades it has over a base model. This applies to the 911 Turbos, the 993-4S, and 993 Turbos as well. The base points for these cars are only from HP/weight, wheel size, and model year. All the old penalties for the stock, factory upgraded suspension, aero, brakes, track, etc. have been dropped. There was a proposal to add points to GT2's and GT3's this last year, but it was denied. That is why, if you take a 996 Carrera, put the GT3 suspension (including adjustable lower control arms = camber adjustment), aero, and brakes, you will end up with the same points as a GT3 without the 60 extra horses (assuming both cars are using the same size and type of tires). To have any chance of making the car competitive, you would have to stuff in the GT3 engine and declare an update.

So the only way any of this would make sense is if, due to the fact that a 996 GT3 is in the 996 model series, and a 997 GT3 is in the 997 model series, those upgrades were of minimal (or no) points penalties to those who upgrade the base cars. Which is why I am confused...

[Cajundaddy]

So for clarification, does this mean that adjustable aftermarket sways are 30 pts and any non-adjustable Porsche sways within the same car class (including M030) are zero pts? So a Boxster or 944 can use any Porsche sway from any year or model within their car class for free??? Gulp!