Dangers of big track instructing: Road & Track Sept 2014

[Cajundaddy]

Would you guys like to host this event and arrange a facility instead? I expect SDR will represent 50% of the candidates from all of Z8. In the past it has been effective to combine it with a DE to have everyone in the same place and follow instructor day with actual on-track application. Nov 2nd better? Qualcomm instead? It doesn't really matter where or when to me, only that we pin it down and get it done.

My role is simply putting people together and I am far more interested in what "does" work rather than what "doesn't" work. Maybe Fri. before Chuckwalla? That would probably draw more Arizona candidates but Fontana is central to the entire Zone with all regions likely to participate. I would love to fill this class.

[ScandinavianFlick]

Speaking only for myself, I would gladly take a day off from work to participate. Fontana Infield is the best possible track for teaching, and the chance to immediately apply what we learn is a great benefit.

[ChuckS]

Dave,
Call me!

[Cajundaddy]

The wheels of progress are turning.

[auxxcay]

I really want to take this course but Halloween is a no go.

[surferr]

The PCA National DE Instructor training was AWESOME. Really nothing about driving/racing at all. ALL about student-instructor relationship, instructors being in proper control of the situation at all times, how to dial students back, how to deal with a variety of student types and methods used to work with different students. Highly recommend this if you attend if you have the chance!

Chuck, If we could get PCA National to come and do the same or similar training here in SD it would be awesome.

Awesome......

[JivenJim]

I plan to do chuckwalla and free Oct 31 to Instruct, Learn, Cheer and Wrench.
Coaching is very important as part of growing for Student and Instructor. I've been fortunate to teach with about 6 groups the last couple years and there's some crazy stuff out there. Like 2 sessions with an Instructor/Coach at Autoclub Roval and free to solo with no prior experience! Sign your own Tech sheet, no inspection, is the new Norm. 16 year old with 400 hp and daddy issues.

The more I learn, the more I understand; I need to learn so much more...
PCA and NASA set the Gold Standard of excellence.
Lines and Racecraft are much easier than the human equation.

[pecivil]

.

there's some crazy stuff out there. Like 2 sessions with an Instructor/Coach at Autoclub Roval and free to solo with no prior experience! Sign your own Tech sheet, no inspection, is the new Norm. 16 year old with 400 hp and daddy issues

sounds exactly like speed ventures. They send me emails all the time offering reduced track fees to instruct. You sign off your own tech sheet, and pretty much run your own gig. If you tell them you are an instructor, they seem to believe you without really proving you know anything at all. But they sure do want "instructors". When I realized the scene they run, I quit going. Its too dangerous, because you have no idea if anyone knows anything in the lower run groups. And these guys show up in GTR's, boss mustangs, you name it. I was almost punted off buttonwillow 2 times the last weekend I ran with them by 2 drivers with no experience in an "experienced" run group, driving a Cadillac CTS-V. They didnt like that their car could be out-braked by a lotus elise (by about 100 yards!!)in every corner so one of them came v-e-r-y close to hitting me to disclose his unhappiness. That was when I said "Nope, too dangerous". Not to mention the dozen of "incidents" that happened every track day.

take heart in knowing how much better PCA is!!!!

[Tim Comeau]

Interesting. I've had similar scary experiences with on-track instructing. I haven't done it since a student spun us out at 110 mph in a stock GT3. I KNEW I shouldn't have even got into that car with no safety gear in it, all that power, and an inexperienced driver who wouldn't even let me moderately drive the car first to show him the line!
Also, scary stuff observing other groups running track days, i.e., "Let's rent the track out and sublet it to any inexperienced driver who has the money." No worthwhile instruction there.
I'm glad PCASDR puts an emphasis on growing better instructors.
I attended the National DE inst. class with Scott Mann some years back and thought it did a good job of separating teaching how to drive vs. how to instruct.
Seems we always have a shortage of instructors, which causes drivers to be pushed thru to instructor status - sometimes prematurely.
I'm all for helping to grow better instructors and would like to help however I can.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Tim and I paired up for the national DE course. We used my stock 944 for the on track portion because it had a heater (it was freezing that day) even though Tim had his spec car. The emphasis was on instructing techniques, not go fast driving techniques (we already know how to go fast!). We could have used a mini van to just as good effect, and the crumbling Q parking lot didn't matter either. The learning wouldn't have been one bit better in a race car on a big track because it was about instructing, not hauling a$$.
As we aren't running an instructor school in-house, the national DE course was very helpful to standardize the instructing methods of those who took it. We never seem to have enough time (or maybe it's the institutional motivation that's lacking) to run an instructor school for entry level AX instructors.
This is a safety issue and more important, if less cool, than many other club event we spend a lot of effort on.

[Tim Comeau]

Yes. I'm all for sharing of ideas and techniques, but not for making a new instructor with a cookie cutter. I think there's great value in approaching a teaching challenge from many different angles and we each have our own sets of experiences, even word "terms", to get our point across. That's why I encourage students to work with different instructors each time to get more richness in their learning content. You never know which instructor, in their own style, will make the point stick in the students head.
I think we have a great framework established. I still have Keith V's little blue 2 x 3 card with bullet points to remind us of the basics.
Couple more points.
- What does the student want to get out of this shared experience? Street control or eventual big track and then racing. I tailor my technique and terms and even aggressiveness accordingly.
- I like to do what I call building bridges. I have to get into the student's world. I ask them, "what do you do for work? Do you have any "flow" sports in your background like surfing, skiing?" Then I find ways to connect what they already know with what we're doing now. Hell, it doesn't matter if they're an investment banker. Tell them that the late turn in point of a decreasing radius turn is a sacrifice investment now that will pay bigger dividends later! Make the connection and start pouring ideas into their head.
- Then, there's the , "God, why didn't I think of that" stuff. I was always looking for a more succinct way of telling the student to open up the radius of their turn and hit the track out point. Then, I heard another instructor use the term, "unwind." Fits perfectly. One word. I'll keep that one in my bag of tricks.
Also, heard Dave Malmberg use the term " energy management" to describe the WHY of what we do to make a car go through a course as quickly as possible. Again, fits perfectly. It turns the entire process of driving quickly into a mental concept that can be used to help govern the students driving inputs.
Yeah. I think we should get together and share some more stuff with each other.

[Jad]

To me, the biggest problem with instructing occurred this weekend, and it is only going to get much worse. My student was a nice guy and really wanted to learn. He was also a good listener. The problem was his car. A slightly modified 997 twin turbo S with PSM permanently disabled so he could learn to drive and of course, no safety equipment.

The first session, he was only going ~68 mph in 9 and hit 145+ before braking very early for corner 1. For comparison, I was going ~100 mph in 9 and only hit 135 before late braking into 1.

I felt bad, but was only willing to ride with him a couple sessions. He learned a lot riding with me, and I did help him a lot between sessions so he shaved over 6 seconds from his best two weeks ago with POC.

I think I convinced him to do Chuckwalla, a much better track to learn, and to get safety equipment, but instructing in these new monsters is an issue. 991's are worse. I can't even imagine when the new GT3's start hitting the track, or even a 918

I don't care what terms you use or how much education, it is a big safety problem.

[LUCKY DAVE]

To me, the biggest problem with instructing occurred this weekend, and it is only going to get much worse. My student was a nice guy and really wanted to learn. He was also a good listener. The problem was his car. A slightly modified 997 twin turbo S with PSM permanently disabled so he could learn to drive and of course, no safety equipment.

The first session, he was only going ~68 mph in 9 and hit 145+ before braking very early for corner 1. For comparison, I was going ~100 mph in 9 and only hit 135 before late braking into 1.

I felt bad, but was only willing to ride with him a couple sessions. He learned a lot riding with me, and I did help him a lot between sessions so he shaved over 6 seconds from his best two weeks ago with POC.

I think I convinced him to do Chuckwalla, a much better track to learn, and to get safety equipment, but instructing in these new monsters is an issue. 991's are worse. I can't even imagine when the new GT3's start hitting the track, or even a 918

I don't care what terms you use or how much education, it is a big safety problem.

The bottom line here is....HIGH POWERED CARS ARE NOT FOR BEGINNERS!
Letting beginners out in these cars is going to bite us hard, it's only a matter of time. No, I don't have a good suggestion on how to deal with it.

[c4s4pcs]

I think that we should consider a requirement that cars above a certain power to weight should, at the least, require basic safety equipment - perhaps also a requirement that less experienced students not be allowed on the fast tracks above a certain P/W ratio. Some of the top Porsche's are simply not suitable as "intro" track cars.

[rshon]

My vague recollection is that in the past we did not allow "students" to run at Fontana Roval and Big Willow (or at least we were very "discouraging"). Over the years, we've lowered the minimum amount of experience necessary to DE and TT in the name of promoting participation. However, it is entirely up to the event organizers and the region's board to set minimum experience levels for each event to promote safety...