Dangers of big track instructing: Road & Track Sept 2014

[Jad]

My student would qualify under most scenarios as he ran with POC at that track two weeks ago plus a few days with other clubs. The problem is it use to be 100 or so mph in a 944 or 3.2 Carrera with a newer driver and the walls seemed fairly far away. Maybe I am just older, but 150 mph makes the walls seem much closer and the dirt way more likely to flipped the car at very high speeds whether it is driver error or a blown tire. Really the student isn't the issue, just the car, though a bad student would be a terrible recipe for disaster.

I really don't know the answer, but I don't think it is fair to instructors to put them in that situation. I really want to support and help the club, but there are limits.

[Kim Crosser]

This isn't limited to "big track" or DE/TT instructing. At an AX in an outer Fontana parking lot (with hills), I had a first time student who was an experienced Motocross rider (who mentioned that he had broken over 80 bones in his Motocross career - I probably should have hopped out then ). He had a brand new 996 and never really seemed to get the idea of how a 996 has slightly more "MASS" than a motorcycle. The second time we spun and I watched the K-rails passing in front of the windshield, I told him if he did that again we would stop for the day. Either of the first two spins could have slammed us into a K-rail.

Name one new Porsche that doesn't have more horsepower than the biggest non-turbo 911 of just a decade ago. "Entry" level Boxsters/Caymans are nearly 300 HP. We have had AX tracks where high-HP cars can hit 100+ MPH on the straights. Of course, a newbie showing up in a full race car is a different story, but what are you going to do with the proud owner of a new 997 GT3 RS (besides fight over who gets to Instruct)?

I think the only thing we can reasonably do is encourage our instructors to "control the driver". If someone is going to drive beyond their limits, I think it becomes obvious pretty quick and we just need to slow them down or shut them down, and pray we don't crash before the second turn.

[Jad]

Well, the fastest 911 from a decade ago was an x51 996, with 350 hp, so it did have more HP than any Boxster or Cayman, but your point is valid. At least to me, the 996.2 was the car that took it too far in that a mediocre driver could hit stupid fast speeds with no skill.

The problem is what if it was the first spin that smashed you into the k-rail, before you had time to tell him don't do it again.

Now it only takes 2-3 seconds to go from ~30 mph to 100 mph, and the pray we don't crash doesn't sounds like a good safety plan.

Trying to think of solutions, like maybe limiting cars to second gear with an instructor? Other ideas?

[Kim Crosser]

I would hate to limit cars to 2nd gear. Even at our AX events, there are usually a couple of places to hit 3rd and shifting is a big part of learning to drive competitively.
My point was that we should probably be reinforcing the concept of "keep the driver under control" to our instructors. Also, I have seen a tendency for instructors to release new drivers into the wild early - which resulted in one case in a newbie losing the track completely and driving "behind" a corner working station at full speed.
We all tend to push our students, trying to accelerate their learning curve. When we were instructing people in 200 HP cars, an oops at 70 might hurt. In a 400 HP car, an oops at 100+ is a different level of risk.
I think we can all recognize the newbie who thinks they can win their class at their first event, or who shows up with a "I wanna see what this baby'll do on the track!" attitude, or just has no clue as to how mass, speed, stability, smoothness, and grip interact.
Maybe at instructor days, PDS, etc., we just need some reminders to the entire instructor corps (not just the forum readers) that going fast "in control" is more important than just going fast.
Fun is fun, until someone gets hurt.

[Mike]

At least with AX you can control the track configuration.
Design safer slower speed tracks to practice car control.
Shorter straights for slower speeds with added brake and corner practice.

Although an 80's (before the trolley tracks, full west lot) PCA Q DE track would be a hoot too.

[pecivil]

but what are you going to do with the proud owner of a new 997 GT3 RS (besides fight over who gets to Instruct)?

exactly. You want to encourage participation, but.....it is funny, we advertise AutoX as a safe way to learn car control and become a better driver, yet as mentioned the newer cars have so much power, you have to start asking IS it safe to do autocross in a car like that for a new student? You know how bad they want to go fast.....and when they see their times, they might think "Boy do I have to go lots faster to compete with these guys". But when they see how they aren't fast when they start, the competitive flames get lit and then its off to the races (no pun intended!). Men are competitive and egos can loom large, especially for a gent who just bought a new GT3. No one likes being last. Its just like you can buy the top of the line golf clubs, but that dont mean you can shoot par. But for a beginner, maybe lap times are something they don't need to know just yet. Just a thought

When I started, I had no idea how much performance driving would bring out the competitor in me....which was great motivation to learn and improve, but I remember in the beginning how obsessed I was with lap times because mine were so much slower....and how bad I wanted to be "that fast". lol ( still aint there yet either) PCASDR autoX's have so many incredible drivers, and the competitive vibe is pretty strong. Friendly, but strong. A competitive environment may encourage taking more risks.

Problem is lap times are the big measure of improvement.

Was it ever required for autoX students to go through the PDS first? That is a tall order, but at least you know they have done some very good car control exercises prior to hitting it for reals. But it probably would mean way less new drivers due to the cost and timing of the school. No matter how good an instructor may be, if they don't listen, they don't listen.

Tough nut to crack here.

[Dave Diamond]

At big tracks there's the mandatory Friday nite classroom session for newbies, right? Does this continue to be mandatory until they have enough events and experience to be signed off to go solo? It's not just that the instructors need to be reminded to keep their students under control. All not-yet-solo students, as a group, ought to get a clear reminder speech at each event emphasizing safety points, obeying the instructor, and stating a set of consequences of not doing so (ending a run session immediately as the first step, then sitting out at least one full run session plus a refresher talk for a second or more serious offense, and finally ejection from the event altogether.) If these are life-and death matters, real consequences are appropriate. And having a graduated set of consequences, starting with lighter ones that are actually used more often, would make it easier on the instructor who needs to cool a student down.

At AXs, a separate 10-minute driver's meeting for all less-than-4-events-with-SDR drivers (or 6 or 8 events even), emphasizing similar points, might help. The onus shouldn't be on the individual instructor alone to control the student. It would work better if all these things are communicated clearly, at every opportunity, as the club's ethos. I certainly think that came across really well when I first started 7 years ago. Based on what people are saying in this discussion, it's clear that there's a huge amount of collective wisdom and experience here about all of these matters. My sense is that our culture has changed a lot in the last few years, has gotten looser, and the wisdom is not on display as clearly as it used to be. Too bad.

[Tim Comeau]

Great discussion, guys.
Jad summed it up for me best. It not being fair to instructors to put them in danger.
I'm not worried about ax-ing because we can control the speeds (mostly ) with track design, and by designing the course with clear spin out areas, which are quite predictable (mostly).
Ax'es are 33% learning, 33% social, 33% competition. You can re-slice that pie how ever it suits your needs that day.

It's the big tracks.
We don't want to exclude anyone because of their car model. Messy.
The best idea I've come up with is limiting their speed, not their gear. Going down the front straight at Willow is teaching them nothing. It's a straight, right? Cap them at 100 mph AND TELL THEM WHY - "I don't feel comfortable going faster than that with your experience level in a car that's this fast with no safety gear."
Capping speed by gear , second gear ? at 6,500 rpm wouldn't be good on the engines. Lower the revs on the engine.
Cap their speed in the big sweepers too. It's the line, balance, etc. that they're learning, right? Not what speed they can get away with.
Waddaya think?

[Cajundaddy]

The good news is that PCA safety incidents are few here in SoCal so we are doing something right. It is pretty rare for a student driver to shunt his car with an instructor in the right seat and in reviewing 2 incidents like this, it was felt that the instructor simply gave the student a little too much freedom to push it before good car control was established. No one was hurt but both cars were toast. It is far more likely for a very experienced driver to see the red mist and stuff his car in a moment of passion while pushing for 11/10ths. Fortunately these have not resulted in injury either. The ratio of highly experienced driver incidents to novice DE driver incidents in SoCal is about 10/1.

Maybe I have been lucky. I have only been scared one time by a student driver. He was a regular SDR AXer in a 2.7 Boxster coming to the track and had good skills and a lot of enthusiasm. We were at Streets and he had been very attentive all morning learning the line pretty well but had not yet figured out the waterfall. I showed him my line while he rode along and then he tried to repeat it at the same speed but WITH THE CAR IN THE WRONG PLACE. We went 2 off on a muddy day and it could have ended badly but he kept it straight. We went into the pits and I calmly explained that we weren't ready yet for that kind of speed and if we put the car on the roof today his dad would be disappointed. He understood, reeled it in, and drove very well the rest of the day. He is still driving very well.

For me it is all about the mindset of the novice student driver and HP is far less important. I have been instructing only since 2008 with approx 100 student drivers so just a pup compared to many here but I have been in them all. GT3RS, AMG C65, GT2RS (in the rain), M5, Ford Cobra, Z06 Vette etc. Horsepower was never a factor as I always start them out very slowly and work up gradually. We add speed only when their line and car control warrant it and we will never ever be going 150mph in a stock car with a novice DE student driver and me in the right seat. Not gonna happen.

A DE is for the purpose of learning car control, safety awareness, and cooperation with other drivers, not racecraft. This is fundamentally different than teaching AX where you only get 12 laps and there is a speed contest with timing involved. Most high HP car owners are keenly aware that their car is a handful and stay far away from those high speeds anyways. Going 100-120 down the straight is usually plenty of adrenalin rush for a novice and follow that with a nice early braking zone so we don't cook the next corner. Once they have 8-10 DEs under their belt and have managed to keep the dirt baths to a minimum, then we can begin to teach more advanced techniques and finding that slip angle envelope as they explore Time Trial competition.

These are my observations and experiences at least. I think we have a pretty amazing driving program here in PCA with AX, DE, TT and CR to choose from. Our instructors do an excellent job of keeping novice students reeled-in while they teach good car control, and we have dozens of drivers with extraordinary driving skills. Incidents involving major damage or injury are a tiny fraction compared with many other driving clubs in the area. Lets take a moment to count our blessings and continue to teach high levels of safety, cooperation, and driving skill as we move forward.

[Jad]

Dave,

The problem I see is we have been 'lucky', but I don't like the chance of being 'unlucky'. About five years ago, there were 5-10 significant incidents. Nothing was really different that year, except the luck ran out. IF your student had tried to jerk the car back, instead of going straight off you 'could' have rolled. You were lucky, as you were put in a situation were you had little control of the outcome.

Also, I think you are a little lucky in that the organizers try to pair students with instructors in similar cars when possible (obviously this does not always work). That means you 'tend' to get Boxsters. I 'tend' to get GT3's, Twin Turbos and other stupid fast cars for students trying to learn

One of our instructors was significantly injured last year at a POC event at Willow when a full caged car hit the wall after a tire failure. No cage would have been far worse.

Tim's idea is good, but I have to admit my student had the line down and was a decent driver. He did a 1:36 at Willow. This is not exactly the perfect lap for his car, but he did have the basics down. He needed to work on speed in corners. What should I do, I certainly helped him shave 10 seconds, but the next 10 get a lot scarier.

Maybe a ~100 mph speed limit for 3 point belts?

I am not sure we should have instructors in cars at Big Willow or Fontana. If you hurt yourself it is one thing, but someone else just trying to help you shouldn't be an option. We do Chuckwalla 2-3 times a year and it is a WAY safer place to learn and instruct.

I vote for no club races at Chuckwalla, just DE's & TT's, and no in car instructing at Big Willow or Fontana. Not sure where BW and SOW fall.

I am hoping to discuss some of this at the meeting on the 8th as I learned quit a bit putting on the big track DE school for years.

[Jackie C]

Hi Jad and others,
Regarding the meeting Oct 8th. It is an AUTOCROSS SOCIAL event. There will be discussion on a few AUTOCROSS topics. I would suggest you talk to the TT CDIs to discuss having a meeting regarding this topic. Thanks for understanding
Jackie

[martinreinhardt]

I think the solution is pretty simple, we should re-introduce the minimum safety equipment rules for DE/TT: Any car (all classes) must have 5 or 6 point belts, a fire extinguisher, a roll bar and the driver must have a minimum of 6 or more Autocrosses under his/her belt to participate at a DE or TT. (I believe this rule was relaxed to increase entrants, but I could be wrong)

This should filter out these type of cars and if someone is not willing to modify their car by adding a minimum safety equipment, then that car shouldn't be on a big track in the first place. Without minimum safety equipment, the only thing allowed should be running lunchtime parade laps at freeway speeds (65 mph max).

*Autocross is not an issue IMO"

[Jad]

+1 Martin!

Hard to argue with that. It may hurt the club a little, but much better than hurting people a lot.

[martinreinhardt]

Probably better to get a rollbar that is NOT bolted to the floor, but rather on chassis structural supports.
I used to have a bolt to the floor rollbar in my 964, but quickly moved to a weld-in cage. My Cayman's rollbar is mounted to chassis supports.

(See link below of what can happen and checkout the rollbar sticking out of the floor )
http://jalopnik.com/5390929/mustang-crash-gallery/

[Tim Comeau]

That Jalopnik video of the mustang is exactly what I worry about with bolt - in cages. Yes, they're much better than nothing. (Maybe a hybrid would have huge floor plates under the feet of the cage, inside the car.)

I can hear that conversation in my head...
" You have to get a roll bar if you want to DE/TT.
But,I don't want to tear up my stock 997.
You're going to be going really fast, it's not safe.
But, I'll stay within my limits.
It might be better to buy a cheap race car with a full cage and not worry about destroying it.
But, I want to drive my own car.
Sorry, but you must have at least a roll bar.
Well, I'll go run with the POC.
That's not any safer.
But, ......

Interesting thought about sending people out by themselves in really fast cars.