Sunday's AX Timing.......Good News, Bad News

[RETII]

Hi All, I can finially contribute some thing! I have a nearly new Honda 3K whisper quiet generator that I will loan the club to use during the Parade. I suppose it could be used at other functions durring the Parade as well. Ralph

[Jad]

Just a reminder as many of the timing people are fairly new, the reflectors did work pretty well for years with NO protection. The problems only happened on really bright days when the sun got low causing glare. I could be wrong, but with the big black boxes protecting them, have we really had a problem or are we fixing a fixed problem?

Still seems to me, we should be able to make a cable mat that would protect the transponder cables, the gokart clubs do it and they have more stick, though less weight and torque.

It does sound like you will be able to make the current system quite realiable as well, I was just thinking the transponders would make timing easier.

Thanks for all the work and not programming the #83 equals plus two seconds

[cone killer]

Kim:

These are good recommendations. I haven't been to the cable manufacturer, but I'm hoping to get much more durable cables. One of my comments to them will be that the cables will be driven over at low speed. We'll see what they say. If cable mats are the answer, then so be it.

A little more brain storming needs to be done on the idea of a light snorkel. It's a great idea, and an extension of the original light boxes, that I think is a great idea. We will want to limit the length of the snorkel to a reasonable length otherwise they will want to tip the boxes over. Also, the use of the snorkel might require us to add adjusting feet to the boxes so we can aim the snorkle. At the PDS, when I setup the lights, the boxes were on a slight grade. In this case if the snorkels where in place, the lights would have never line up to the reflector. The idea where the snorkle is removable would give us some latitude in its installation.

Glad you raised your hand for this part of the trouble shooting.

Oh Yeah, I agree that we will want a backup generator for Parade because all this work would be for not if we didn't have power.

Club members,

There are some really good ideas here and I admire the spirit of volunteerism that makes people want to help out. Yet, I have seen many projects have a worsened outcome due to uncoordinated but well meaning people come up with solutions before a problem is completely defined.

Recently I was asked to 'volunteer' to assist with the timing duties in the trailer, presumably because I demonstrated the ability to reboot a computer. This is a job that, until last weekend, I looked forward to. The participant issues notwithstanding, I looked forward to looking at ways to improve the timing system that we have. Having attended every autocross in the last 7 years, I have seen many events in which the timing system has been at fault and on at least one occasion where the results were thrown out due to problems with the system. Having spent 2/3rds of my life as a consultant dealing with electrical problem and resolution issues, I was looking forward to aiding this club in an area I am familiar with.

As I see it these are the issues involved with the timing 'gear' (that I can think of):

1) The hardware
2) The software
3) The 'pick-up' lights
4) The display
5) Power and backup

Regarding Item #2, I had my first look at the current version of the SW that Tom Brown wrote last Sunday and as a programmer, I am impressed. He has designed a custom solution for the club that is easy to use and quite accurate. I recognized the many hundreds (perhaps thousands) of hours that he has invested in making an outstanding system. I applaud his investment in time that for the most part is unrecognized. I doubt we could buy a better system. Tom should consider marketing it, if he hasn't already.

For Item #1, I include the computer (backup on the way), the 'black box' and associated wiring into the computer system (including power pack). This power pack was adjacent to the 'black box' in the shaded area of the trailer and its proximity was ultimately determined by Bill to be the cause of the false triggering of the system. In hindsight, it should have been obvious but I missed it. In my experience these power packs are notorious for emitting EMI when they get old and parts wear out (they really do). It should be replaced immediately and perhaps every year as they are cheap but even so, there are better solutions available. What is more surprising to me is that the 'black box' does not have sufficient (if any) shielding to protect it, especially in such a harsh environment as a track event. This is not your air-conditioned living room to be sure. Shielding of wires should be looked at carefully so as not to introduce ground loops that could make the system performance worse, if not damaging to the equipment. Still, I think this area has the most potential for permanent problem resolution at this time.

Regarding Item #3, I have seen problems in the past with the timing lights and wiring to them. More rugged cable is a good option as wires have been accidentally cut in the past. Problems with the light sensors have been so prevalent in the past that it is the first thing to be suspected when something goes wrong with the system. Last Sunday was no exception as the lights were 'fiddled' with several times, the problem was 'cured', only to recur later. Once the EMI solution was found, I was aware of no more issues with the lights, even with the setting sun. I'm sure there can be some improvement but are we really trying to fix what "ain't broke"? Some more investigation should be done here.

For Item #4, the display. Occasionally it does lock up, as Kim stated. There could be any number of reasons for this including hardware, software, EMI, temperature, humidity, shock (has it never been dropped?!?), etc. I would not be surprised if there is no EMI shielding there either. These issues must be looked at more deductively before implementing solutions that may at best have no effect and at worst, exacerbate them. Probably Tom, or I (or both preferably) should approach this from the SW vs HW angles. I am available on the hardware side.

Regarding Item #5, the Power and back up issue. I do not know what the power requirements are for the trailer and I hope to take an inventory of the power budget to nail it down. Having a backup generator is good as it not only supports the timing gear but also the PA, the printer, radio chargers, etc. Other methods of redundancy may be practical such as battery backup, UPS, Solar power, etc. More review should take place.

I might have jumped the gun here and I don't mean to step on any toes. Yet I believe that there should be one focus for resolving the timing issues with input from members being considered as part of a plan to improve the 'system'. It seems natural that Bill Ibbetson would assume the lead in this matter by collecting input and delegating to his best judgement. I offer my assistance in resolving power and EMI issues and any other areas where I might offer my expertise to the club. I already own most of the equipment anyway.

Finally I would like to applaud Ralph for volunteering his generator . These are the kind of ways that people help us to put our best foot forward, especially for the upcoming parade. See you at the track.

Best, Doug

[bibbetson]

Just a reminder as many of the timing people are fairly new, the reflectors did work pretty well for years with NO protection. The problems only happened on really bright days when the sun got low causing glare. I could be wrong, but with the big black boxes protecting them, have we really had a problem or are we fixing a fixed problem?

The lights get the blame most of the time. I'm sure that sometimes they are at fault, many times I think they are an easy target. Shading them a little more won't hurt as long as we don't go overboard. I'm thinking a 4-5 inch long square that fastens to the square cut out of the box. Think of a square lens shade on a camera.

Jad, the use of transponders would be great, but in reality it would only cut one task from the timing crew; staging the cars. When the system is running right, that's a fairly simple job (as long as you remember to stage the cars ). There is so much more to deal with at an AX (cars off track, DNF, cone counts, etc) that a transponder system just can't help with.

[bibbetson]

OK Doug, you're on my list. I'd like to put together a plan for removing the potential for EMI interferance in the first place. As you have noticed, the black box just sits on the table with all the power and cables randomly tossed about it. I want to change that for good.

[Kim Crosser]

All of it sounds good.

Just a note - on Sunday, the display actually locked up perhaps a dozen times during the apparent EMI issues (you may have seen me powering the display off and on to get new numbers up). On any given day, it does lock up intermittently - I can remember having to reset it at least a few times at every AX this year.

The display freeze itself could well be another EMI issue, but what is puzzling is that once it does lock up, it doesn't seem to respond to further time updates until a power reset (possibly it thinks it is in the middle of receiving some "interesting" string format?). Some form of reset from the computer would be nice, or better yet a way to detect the freeze or clear any freeze automatically with each time download.

As a driver, it can be quite frustrating when you go a whole practice session without seeing a valid time.

Anyway, I am glad to help with whatever I can.

[bibbetson]

That's good information on the display Kim. I'll talk to Tom about it. More than likley the serial command set is getting half received and there is no hand shake in the protocal. Thus, like you said it gets confused. If this is the case, EMI again would be the cause, but a buffer reset or something before each send might kick it into gear without us having to do it manually.

BTW: Did you have to reset the display on Sunday after we cured the EMI problem?

[Kim Crosser]

I don't recall exactly (things were pretty hectic), but I don't think we had to reset it after you moved the electronics.

[cone killer]

I don't recall exactly (things were pretty hectic), but I don't think we had to reset it after you moved the electronics.

Hi guys,

I should have replied earlier but didn't. From Kim's description and subsequent post it sounds like a buffer over-run error given the clues I was observing in the trailer while the display was acting up. Multiple false triggers of cars crossing the finish line could have caused a message to be sent while it was still processing the previous data. Mechanical displays are notoriously slow and the driving software is expected to take care of the timing as there is usually no handshaking protocol, as Tom suggested. I have ideas on improving this I can discuss with Tom at his leisure. I have a little experience in designing and programming displays as well.

Since this is getting kinda technical, I will contact the people directly to further discuss this aspect. Thanks for all the input and keep 'em coming.

Best, Doug

[Kim Crosser]

Of course, maybe we can fix this with an RBA Analyzer and an ANZA brush.

(points for identifying the quote)

[tb911]

As the display is primarily a mechanical device, I've been wondering if it needs to be taken apart and thoroughly cleaned or refurbished.

[RETII]

Perhaps if someone was to monitor the display from say the pits or similar location and have a radio to call into the trailer/start line as soon as an error is noticed to prevent starting any further incorrectly timed cars. That would seem to cut down the number of reruns needed to finish the day, as well as giving the trailer more time( less pressure) to correct/ diagnose the problem. Just a thought from a newbie. Ralph

[cone killer]

Of course, maybe we can fix this with an RBA Analyzer and an ANZA brush.

(points for identifying the quote)

Can you still shop for those at Electrode hut?

Best, Doug

[John Straub]

You guys amaze me. We have a problem and you guys jump in and work to fix it. Thanks Bill, Kim and Doug, from us that are electronically challenged.

[bibbetson]

Perhaps if someone was to monitor the display from say the pits or similar location and have a radio to call into the trailer/start line as soon as an error is noticed to prevent starting any further incorrectly timed cars. That would seem to cut down the number of reruns needed to finish the day, as well as giving the trailer more time( less pressure) to correct/ diagnose the problem. Just a thought from a newbie. Ralph

This has been misinterpreted by many. The display has nothing to do with timing - other than letting the crowd / drivers know what's going on. We could technically perform an entire days timing without the display every being connected. Not that the drivers would be happy with this however.

(Note to self. if (Driver# == 83) time += 2 )