Rule changes for 2011

[Dan Chambers]

Otherwise we can each have our own class defined by the exact condition of the car that day.

Isn't that what we have now?

[gulf911]

I think this entire 'optimizing' thing is a bit of a joke. I have never seen more than 1 or 2 cars at any AX optimized. To be even close, you need to be using max points, but with sticker, shaved, heat cycled max sticky for class tires you can buy. I don't care what spring rate or factory option you have, tires must be perfect to really be close to optimal. The third event on RA1's, a car is not optimized.

Since most of us are not willing/able to spend that much on tires, i think we just need a system that allows a bunch of people in a class to compete for a class win that really means something. Getting first (and last) in class, just isn't that rewarding. Getting third after nailing your last timed run is MUCH better, especially when your tires are getting old, the people that beat you are in cheater cars and the sun was in your eyes! That is the stuff that makes this fun, and the driving.

No matter how 'spec;' the series, some cars are better than others, so perfection for the rules is not possible. That is why a simpler system that allows more, and a greater variety of cars, in each class seems like a good idea. Otherwise we can each have our own class defined by the exact condition of the car that day. That would be fair, but not as much fun.

+1 Jad.

You guys do realize you are spending all this money and time for a .05 ribbon? Dan , all classes do not have major changes every year. However, when you slide in a 3.6 into a 3.0 car to optimize for the class well then the rules might need to be looked at... Is this how you got bumped?
You could have had a limited slip and been running 710's or Hoosiers for quite some time on the money you spent for the 3.6 I would imagine. and less points maybe?
Anyway Jad is 100% correct, Tires , Tires , Tires. As Jad has also mentioned class rules can change because certain cars can start out optimized, like the old GS/s class and the 73 911E, which had the 944's running in there as well. The 911E was lighter and had about 18hp more, so it was the best car for that class to start with. Regardless of the class system used not all people are going to be happy, and you will still have changes regardless. I am also against every 2 years. If a glaring problem arises it can be changed the following year. IMHO

[kleggo]

Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Good stuff. Makes for a good read on a drizzly morning.

sure does, interesting...........
I just show up and drive to have fun and learn.
I'm not getting paid to AX, so why stress this optimization thing?

cheers

Craig

[Mmagus]

Good thoughts Dan and Jad!

Interesting this optimizing idea. Perhaps it is because I have only been at this a year, or maybe its just me, but my idea of having my car optimized is that it handles and performs just like I want it to. For me, Snickers is the "ideal" because that little yellow car just does "what I think" driving it is like an extension of myself. Its nearly effortless. Tuffy is nearly there, a bit of tinkering with suspension settings and I think he will be perfect...for me. Now, that has nothing to do with winning or losing but the enjoyment of driving. Of course I will do my utmost best to run as fast as I can and if that brings me a win, wonderful, if not (while that isnt as much fun as a win)...oh well. I have not used all my points in class, and might never do so. If the set up I have puts me in another class next year then I will just have different folks to have fun running against. The G/SS usually has one of the larger groups so we have very little lack of competition, but I would love running against folks in other types of cars that have similar performance time capabilities, it would be fun. Which brings me back to giving a big thumbs up to some system, be it the GGR or another that puts more folks and different car types in less classes.

[Dan Chambers]

Dan , all classes do not have major changes every year. However, when you slide in a 3.6 into a 3.0 car to optimize for the class well then the rules might need to be looked at... Is this how you got bumped?

Dan: the 3.6 replaced a tired 3.0 that was too costly to rebuild in a year or two. The 3.6 was cheaper than the 3.0 rebuild. I went 2 classes up ... willingly ... with the fresh 3.6L. That was a happy bump.

I got bumped way back when I was running the 944 in the top of GS ... only to get bumped to the bottom of GP one year later. I sat at the bottom of GP ... playing with the 944Spec series cars rather than fight with the 911's in GP until I sold the car. At that time I was more interested in what the Spec cars were doing than trying ... to no possible avail ... to catch the early 911S cars.

You're right, all classes don't have major changes every year. However, every year someone winds up getting bumped into a higher class without their choosing. More importantly, we're finding ourselves with 20-something/40-something/whatever-something classes with 1 and 2 cars per class .

That seems odd when there may be alternatives that make cars with similar times compete against each other making it more exciting, enjoyable, and at the end of the day worth coming out and driving for. I don't know about others, but I find myself asking people who aren't in my class how they're doing. But that's just because I'm sooooo much slower than the drivers in my class.

Anyways, as I said earlier: with the right people taking a critical look at alternatives to our present cut-and-paste-and-overlay-and-patch-and-replace system and consider creating a fresh, and more compelling system, I think there are alternative possibilities out there. I'm not saying the GGR system is the fix. I'm not saying that we should ignore it either. I think there is plenty of room to review, consult, consider, and adjust what has become ... to me ... a 5000# gorilla on the backs to our current ranking system. There may be a form if integration of what we know, and what others know (Chuck S. idea of a Zone review is very interesting to me), and a workable solution that levels the playing field in a way that works for all of us.

But - hey, that's just one dude's perception.

[Gary Burch]

Can we drag this out anymore?

Do a trial run at the next ax. People that are interested ,classify your cars before the event( Accurately), tape it on, and at the end of the day we will see how it worked out.

Let's try it and not agonize over the theory of it's shortcomings or it's lack of respect for the optimized car.


GEEEEZ...

[rshon]

Just when I thought this thread finally died...

Can we drag this out anymore?
...
GEEEEZ...

I tried to kill it on page 5, but IT'S STILL ALIVE!

Well, this thread has been going on since June 27, started by Tom Brown but ignited by Greg Phillips.

The proposal to use Zone 7's rules made it into the Zone 8 2011 Proposed Rule Changes, so no sense in expending any more energy there. If we're going to be serious about this, I still think that to effectively grade a rules system we need to have some agreed upon criteria with which to evaluate both the existing rules and the proposed rules (and grade the effectiveness of the change afterward). Hopefully the Zone 8 Rules Committee and the Zone 8 Presidents have such a list of criteria.

As they are no doubt monitoring this laborious thread, I might as well put in another two cents:

1) We need to somehow preserve the separation of Stock/Street cars from "Tuned" cars and from Race Cars. Even though the rabid enthusiasts on this thread are in the last two categories, the largest number of our bread-and-butter AX participants (both new and returning) are in the Stock/Street cars. Maybe we need a different class system for Time Trials. We also need to preserve our progression of required safety equipment.
2) We need to preserve the separation of cars from different eras
3) We need to ignore anecdotal stories or assertions that a given car is at a "disadvantage" in a certain class. This is how we got so many classes in the first place.
4) If we don't stick to objective, measurable means of putting cars in classes, then many of us will have issues with any system we choose to implement (including the current one). If we can't accurately account for differences in equipment (say between an RA-1 and a V710), then maybe we should restrict the use of certain types of modifications or tires to certain levels of car preparation.
5) We're supposed to be doing this for fun. I'm certainly not making any money from it. A little friendly competition is great (I tangle with lots of my friends who aren't even remotely in the same class) (but no race teams are calling). Whatever rules system we have, I think most of us will just shrug our shoulders and look for the cheapest place to buy new class letters.

Y'all have a mighty fine day.

[ttweed]

Anyways, as I said earlier: with the right people taking a critical look at alternatives to our present cut-and-paste-and-overlay-and-patch-and-replace system and consider creating a fresh, and more compelling system, I think there are alternative possibilities out there...There may be a form if integration of what we know, and what others know (Chuck S. idea of a Zone review is very interesting to me), and a workable solution that levels the playing field in a way that works for all of us.

This is the crux of the issue, a point I tried to make earlier. The existing proposal suggests replacing our classification system, while ignoring its impact on and interrelationship with the rest of the rule set. It could not be adopted as proposed without a host of changes to other portions of the rules (which remain unspecified in the existing proposal). The annual call for proposals of Zone 8 rule changes is NOT the proper venue to propose sweeping or complete replacement of the rules. It is designed to provide a means for incremental change of the existing rules. There is nothing to prevent us with "experimenting" with any system we want to, as a region, but expecting this proposal to lead to fundamental change to the Zone 8 rules for 2011 is highly unlikely, I think. The existing process is not designed for that.

The rules are for the entire Zone, not just SDR. If there is to be a complete overhaul of the rules, I don't see how this could be accomplished without a Zone-wide rules committee with representatives of all the regions giving input and agreeing with the overall philosophy and direction of the changes, while examining all aspects of their impact on every region. A single change proposal like this (classification) can't be done in isolation from the rest of the rules, and one region cannot dictate the direction for the whole Zone. If there is such widespread dissatisfaction with the existing Zone 8 rules, then I would suggest that it needs to be addressed through a different process than what is going on here, with a more "holistic" approach. This is not something that can be done in a few month's time, simply because of the scope and the logistics of what would be involved.

Personally, I think the solution should be on a National level, similar to Club Racing rules. I think there should be an overhaul of the national Parade autox rules (which are just as messed up as ours, IMHO, just in a different way), possibly using GGR's as a model, so that a PCA member can go to any region in the country and know what to expect.

TT

[Cajundaddy]

I appreciate all the time and effort our Zone 8 rules committee has spent developing our current rule set over the years and I appreciate the efforts of those who have devoted themselves to optimizing their cars for a particular class. No rule set will satisfy everyone but the goal is/should be to meet the needs of a majority of PCA Zone 8 drivers. With 65 current classes and new classes being proposed for 2011 our class rules have become irrelevant to all but a very few. The rest of us either run Spec, run for TTOD, or run for BRI.

The more I look at the Zone 7 classes the more I like them. Any driver can change class, easily moving up or down by the tire choices they make. There would be little or no expense incurred for current drivers with modified cars to max their cars to a given Zone 7 class. To be competitive in a class you do not have to run Hoosiers in obscene sizes unless you choose to run for TTOD. Modern stock cars can run with modified vintage cars as long as they make similar tire choices and have similar power/weight ratio. Safety requirements could be easily adapted to this rule set at relative performance points for example: Fire ext. in all TT8 classes and higher. Suits and harness in all TT5 classes and higher etc. No rule set will be perfect and someone will always feel shorted by any rule change but the Zone 7 system does seem to meet the goal of serving the majority of PCA Zone 8 drivers. I like it.

[Greg Phillips]

Anyways, as I said earlier: with the right people taking a critical look at alternatives to our present cut-and-paste-and-overlay-and-patch-and-replace system and consider creating a fresh, and more compelling system, I think there are alternative possibilities out there...There may be a form if integration of what we know, and what others know (Chuck S. idea of a Zone review is very interesting to me), and a workable solution that levels the playing field in a way that works for all of us.

This is the crux of the issue, a point I tried to make earlier. The existing proposal suggests replacing our classification system, while ignoring its impact on and interrelationship with the rest of the rule set. It could not be adopted as proposed without a host of changes to other portions of the rules (which remain unspecified in the existing proposal). The annual call for proposals of Zone 8 rule changes is NOT the proper venue to propose sweeping or complete replacement of the rules. It is designed to provide a means for incremental change of the existing rules. There is nothing to prevent us with "experimenting" with any system we want to, as a region, but expecting this proposal to lead to fundamental change to the Zone 8 rules for 2011 is highly unlikely, I think. The existing process is not designed for that.

The rules are for the entire Zone, not just SDR. If there is to be a complete overhaul of the rules, I don't see how this could be accomplished without a Zone-wide rules committee with representatives of all the regions giving input and agreeing with the overall philosophy and direction of the changes, while examining all aspects of their impact on every region. A single change proposal like this (classification) can't be done in isolation from the rest of the rules, and one region cannot dictate the direction for the whole Zone. If there is such widespread dissatisfaction with the existing Zone 8 rules, then I would suggest that it needs to be addressed through a different process than what is going on here, with a more "holistic" approach. This is not something that can be done in a few month's time, simply because of the scope and the logistics of what would be involved.

Personally, I think the solution should be on a National level, similar to Club Racing rules. I think there should be an overhaul of the national Parade autox rules (which are just as messed up as ours, IMHO, just in a different way), possibly using GGR's as a model, so that a PCA member can go to any region in the country and know what to expect.

TT

Greetings from Parade, and yes the Parade rules are worse than ours. A national body and set of rules would be convenient, but not likely anytime soon. The Zone 7 set seemed a likely stand-in.

But I submitted this to the only venue available, the Zone 8 rules committee and Tom Brown. They will be responsible for integrating any needed updates to other affected rules such as safety. There has been talk about making a revolutionary change rather than evolutionary changes, I thought it was time to start that discussion in earnest.

Greg

[lbevins]

Goonies never say die!