Rule changes for 2011

[tb911]

Don't forget to check out the proposed changes for 2011 and send me your opinions!

http://zone8.pca.org/rules_prop.php

And if there are proposals you'd like to make, time is growing short, please get them to me soon

rules@pcasdr.org

[Greg Phillips]

Now is the time to make a clean sweep for 2011.
We have been placing band-aids on top of band-aids and it is time to look at a new classification system
When we did the Buttonwillow GGR TT we were exposed to the Zone 7 car classes.
http://comp.pca-ggr.org/classification_ ... /index.php
http://comp.pca-ggr.org/classification_ ... osophy.php
I think they have done a very good job and we should seriously look at adopting their system. It has been up and running for a four years and offers several advantages over our present system.

1 No need to try and develop a new class for the faster new cars, you only decide what their base points should be
2 There are fewer classes and so more people can have a competitive class rather than lots of classes with 1 car.
3 Different modification points for AX vs TT so a wing or brakes that would help in TT are not penalized for AX where it is not an advantage.
4 You can also subtract points for cars with tiptronic or automatics that are disadvantaged by their options

Best of all, it was developed somewhere else and no one should feel that their car is being singled out for an advantage or disadvantage by the new rules.

Why wait another year, now is the time to adopt the new system for 2011.

Greg

[gocart]

O.K!!! You guys should run your cars through their system and see what you think. Go here and fill out the form, it computes your class automatically. http://comp.pca-ggr.org/classification_ ... r_form.php

My car has 720 points. Yea, SEVEN HUNDRED TWENTY points, which puts me up there towards the top, as I see it.
If you look here you can see how the cars compare. http://comp.pca-ggr.org/classification_ ... =0&c=0&o=0
My initial impression is that it REALLY penalizes the older cars, even more than our system.

What do you guys think?

[mrondeau]

Gordon, You'r car's base points are 240 and you have 480 mod points. 100 points for under 50 treadwear and 60 for wheel size. You also take 75 points for displacement. The rest of the points are because there's not much left on your car that's stock.

My 944S has a base point starting point of 250 points and with 235 points in modifications it would put me in TT11 class. I would be racing against cars such as an RS America, a 944S2, 986 and 987 Boxsters, a 914, 912, 911's, etc. There are potentially 20 people in that class based on how modified their cars are and where they started. I'm taking 80 points for wheel size, but only 50 for 100 to 51 treadwear. I think it's as least as fair as our system and makes sense overall. We're running out of classes and it seems like we have to move cars around in classes all the time.

I think the rules committee should give it some serious consideration.

Just my .02 cents adjusted for the current economy.

[Cajundaddy]

At a glance the GGR system looks pretty fair. Once pointed out I am surrounded by my peers. If I want to move down a class I could put the stock sway back on. If I want to move up a class I could mount V710s in slightly wider sizes. Simple and straightforward. This would result in larger classes of closely matched cars which makes racing fun.

[Gary Burch]

I ended up in TT13 with 400 points. With Boxster's and Carrera's and 1 RSAmerica.

I like it.

[Gary Burch]

Oops, non-stock muffler bumped me up, 405 points. Now in TT12.

I don't like it.

[JERRY B]

PLEASE put your stock muffler on

[Dan Chambers]

A preliminary glance at the GGR system indicates (to me) the older cars do seem to get beat-up on points based on the amount of mod's the older cars are subject to. Like the disparity of our own system a few years back (remember when all cars in Street Stock class got just 2 points ... and that for tires? Now we have a two-tiered system for A-J, K- ??? right? ) ... I think the premise of the GGR system is pretty sound, and it may need to be tweeked a bit to conform to the older car's inherent need for after-market or later-developed and "non-stock" equipment. Perhaps with some careful analysis and thorough break-down an appropriate system could be used based on the principals outlined in the GGR system.

If you've ever competed in a Parade Autocross, you know how ... er .... "unique" some classification systems can get. (For the Portland Parade AX it only took me a week to sort out where my car was classed. ) I'm confident that with the right people, the proper amount of time, and some careful considerations, the GGR method could prove very resourceful to our burgeoning classification system.

Just my 0.000000002 cents ( 2-cents adjusted after inflation and dollar depreciation globally)

[lagrasta]

I like the idea at first glance. I'd certainly like to see classes with more cars in them.

As far as the older cars and replacement parts are concerned, I am curious about the exact definition of "non-stock". Does that mean anything not made by porsche (or other official OEM)? Or is it anything that does not conform to the stock specifications.

For instance, if someone needed to replace a sway bar, and the Porsche label doubled the price, could they buy a different brand bar that was of the same diameter/stiffness/etc and still be "stock"? Or maybe a wheel that was the same size and weight?

For me, the fairness to older cars relies heavily on that distinction.

[Mmagus]

When I class out Tuffy i end up against 911SC's, 964 C2's, and 914's... Not a 944 in the lot

[mrondeau]

When I class out Tuffy i end up against 911SC's, 964 C2's, and 914's... Not a 944 in the lot

At the last AX you finished ahead of Boxsters, Carreras, 911's, 964 C2's, C4's, 968's etc. That's what's great about the system. It allows different cars to compete equally (theoretically) against each other. You can have a highly modified 944 competing against a bone stock GT3, a slightly modified 996 and a moderately modified Boxster. I say, bring it on. I think it will be more competitive, more fun and will be easier to adjust than our current system. It will probably take a few years to sort out the point values for changes, especially on some of the older cars, but we're changing things every year now and we continue to add new classes for cars.

[gocart]

I think the GGR system makes a lot of sense.

If we adopt it we will have to spend a lot to time figuring out what modifications to include. Seems to me that GGR gets a little too detailed. I mean do we want to penalize for things like plastic suspension bushings? Here are some examples.

7b. Car has non-stock brake calipers 10
>>I have OPTIONAL "S" calipers, 10 points?

13. Car has smaller battery or battery removed 5
>> One battery instead of the two on an older car?

15. Car has non-stock glazing 10
>> 10 points for plexiglass?

16. Car has window lift mechanism removed 5
>> Leather straps instead of cranks?

17c. Car has one or more racing style seats. 10
>> Racing seats, I guess they do make me faster.

18b.Car has a complete interior - no untrimmed surfaces 5
>> If I take out the carpet on the drivers side floor is that 10 points?

19b. Car has flared fenders added 10
>> I'm not sure flairs make you faster.

20.Car has non-stock bumpers 20

21.Car has non-stock front hood 5

22. Car has non-stock rear hood. 5

23.Car has non-stock doors 20

26.Car has one or more windshield wipers removed 0

27.Car has ancillary systems modified or removed 5

30b.Car has a non-stock front spoiler 10

43.Air cleaner or housing, or air inlet ducting is not stock.5

44.Complete induction system has been replaced with alternate system 15

Can the members of SDR agree to this?

At what level would one have to wear a fire suit at a TT? or DE?

[AGill]

I like the idea of more cars to compete with for sure...assuming of course that the cars are really equal in their ability and thus making it about the driver. When I did a quick point tally I see that my 993C4S (PSS10's, 280tw tires, M030 sways) is in AX/TT 9 which puts me up against several stock Cayman S cars with treadwear as low as 50. I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a stock Cayman S (or non-s boxter or cayman for that matter) with equal tires and driver as a 993 will give a whoopin to a 993 around an AX course. Then you add in a 230tw point tire allowance favoring the Cayman S and I think it's pretty clear that the GGR system would not allow 993's to be competative given equal drivers.

I spent a bit of time over a year ago working with Tom Brown to adjust the current Zone 8 classification rules to get a stock 993C4S or 2S out of the "prepared" class because I; (1) didn't want to be forced to install race seats and harnesses to be able to attend a DE or TT, and (2) found that it was a joke for a stock widebody 993 to be classed with narrow bodied 993/Cayman/boxters with r-compounds/cages/seats/harnesses/suspension mods/etc....that's just not fun if you are in the mood to compete.

There are a lot of people in this club far more knowledgeable than I am about this stuff so I only offer my comments as one example with the GGR system that appears out of balance. From my seat at least, I think the Zone 8 proposal is a continued positive progression towards a better classing system.

And, I'll go ahead and say it before anyone else does...I know, if I was a better driver I wouldn't have to worry about the Cayman S's

[Mmagus]

When I class out Tuffy i end up against 911SC's, 964 C2's, and 914's... Not a 944 in the lot

At the last AX you finished ahead of Boxsters, Carreras, 911's, 964 C2's, C4's, 968's etc. That's what's great about the system. It allows different cars to compete equally (theoretically) against each other. You can have a highly modified 944 competing against a bone stock GT3, a slightly modified 996 and a moderately modified Boxster. I say, bring it on. I think it will be more competitive, more fun and will be easier to adjust than our current system. It will probably take a few years to sort out the point values for changes, especially on some of the older cars, but we're changing things every year now and we continue to add new classes for cars.

Actually I think it would be fun running againt other types of cars! I was just curious because when I checked the "AX Classsed" cars on their site there were no 944's, maybe they just dont own them? I did check a 1989 944 (the one with 20 more HP than I have...that our current rules puts in my class ) and that system puts it in a different class. (Go get 'em Jerry! hehe) I am with you Mark...lets give it a whirl! If it dosnt work no biggie we can always go back to our current system..no harm trying.