DE /TT fees

[gulf911]

Optional Timed Runs at $30 per driver ($25 online; $50 at track)…………….. $_________
$100 On-site Registration Fee (if registering week of event or at track)……... $_________


To the powers that be, I think you may be limiting the possible entrants with these additional fee's. $100 extra to register at the event?
I realize you want to discourage late registration but why discourage participation? There are any number of reasons why someone may not register withing your time frame
why not make this more reasonable? Like $25-$35. If I am late to register and its $25, I will probably pay the $25 to attend, I would not even consider it at $100.
As long as they are there the morning of registration lets make this reasonable.

Timed runs $50 at the track? So they have the transponder already, they are registered and you know their times. They decide Sunday to opt for timing and you double the rate?
I am already against the $25 to begin with, I wont even consider $50 for 2 extra laps.

The TT program losing money was not due to late registrations but on attendance and this extra fee structure discourages attendance. IMHO.

[Gary Burch]

I hope they don't start charging for timed runs at the AX's

Optional Timed Runs at $30 per driver ($25 online; $50 at track)…………….. $_________
$100 On-site Registration Fee (if registering week of event or at track)……... $_________


To the powers that be, I think you may be limiting the possible entrants with these additional fee's. $100 extra to register at the event?
I realize you want to discourage late registration but why discourage participation? There are any number of reasons why someone may not register withing your time frame
why not make this more reasonable? Like $25-$35. If I am late to register and its $25, I will probably pay the $25 to attend, I would not even consider it at $100.
As long as they are there the morning of registration lets make this reasonable.

Timed runs $50 at the track? So they have the transponder already, they are registered and you know their times. They decide Sunday to opt for timing and you double the rate?
I am already against the $25 to begin with, I wont even consider $50 for 2 extra laps.

The TT program losing money was not due to late registrations but on attendance and this extra fee structure discourages attendance. IMHO.

I hope they don't start charging for timed runs at AX's

[gulf911]

Gary,
Timed runs at an AX is an integral part of an AX, you get timed based on class to see how you fare against others in your class.
Now a Time Trial is different, even though the word 'Time' is in there its a DE with optional timing...
Crap, Robert is going to kill me...

Gary, if they start charging for times at an AX I am going to blame you for putting the idea in their head!

[Don Middleton]

...Timed runs at an AX is an integral part of an AX...if they start charging for times at an AX I am going to blame you for putting the idea in their head!

Dan, timed runs "used to be" an integral part of Time Trials, too, as you know. But, it's new era and anything is possible when thinking "outside the box". Gary "let the dogs out". So, you never know what's around the corner.

[JERRY B]

Only loud cars will be charged for timed runs at AX's

[Mike]

it is what it is,
meanwhile...
SOW this weekend w/ Speed Trial USA.
$140
$25 transponder optional
4-6 20 minute sessions
http://www.speedtrialusa.com/index.php?option=com_rsform&Itemid=72
If 5 Porsche enter together then group price rate drops to $120 each.

[Robert]

Please see this thread – http://forum.pcasdr.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4502 – for information on a meeting to share ideas about the DE & TT program.

[4est]

I think if prices need to go up, they need to go up. Keep it simple. Time runs are an integral part of a Time Trial. Adding the cost as an option will only allow people to opt out if they are having car trouble or a bad weekend. This in itself will create an accounting nightmare. This is a non-profit organization, but it does have to pay for itself. Find the right number from what we should have been charging last year to make ends meet and post that as the new price. No questions that way. Some tracks are cheaper than others, but we want to go to all of them, so charging one rate regardless of location wold be okay with me. I am not made of money, either, but I do know that racing a Porsche is not a cheap hobby. Make it as reasonable as you can, and get on with it. All the different new fees seem like smoke and mirrors. Keep in mind the ecomony's impact on participation last year while you're at it. Find the right dollar figure and post it.

My two cents...

[Dan Chambers]

FWIW:

Times are tough. It appears the tracks are loosing revenue due to a reduction in clients and their interest in spending "recreational" funds. Prices are going up, and will continue to go up to rent facilities. That's just the way the track operators are working this economy. It's a poor business model, but they're doing it anyway.

PCA-SDR/Zone 8 TT participation has dropped in the last couple of years at driving events (AX, DE, and TT). This has been a reflection of poor economic times, more competition from other club events (POC, OCR and GPR ... and even CCCR events), and rising costs per event. This has been a real "one-two" punch to the TT series that Jack/Robert put on. It has also affected the AX and DE programs. The 2010 Board had one of the most difficult fiscal delemas for the Region due to an overall loss of "typical" revenue. That we didn't default as a region is a credit (no pun intended) to Curt Yaws, Bill Behun, and all the Board Members.

Jack and Robert are trying to develop a program of mixed driver's skills and variable costing in an effort to increase participation (DE/TT combined, Pay for 1 day, 2 days, Timed or not Timed). They have reduced the total number of events to the current number of 4 in 2011 (perceived increase in demand with fewer events, and reduction in outlay for the annual budget). These are all things that smart business people do.

For now, gone are the days of 5 or 6 TT's a year with $300.00 Fees/Timed Runs included. Those have gone the way of The Beatles, Led Zepplin, and the Mullet hair cut (I bet Dan A. had a Mullet ). Maybe we'll get back to the more simplistic system of yore in a few years when times are better, but for now, we have to support the efforts of our Chairs, acccept the fate of bad times, pull up the boot straps, and take it like the men (and women) of the PCA that we are.

Too hot in the Kitchen? I'd like to help you out: which door did you come in?

Kudos to the TT/AX/DE Chairs, whose have to "push the stone uphill" to make their events happen. You have my support.

[Mike]

FWIW:
Times are tough. It appears the tracks are loosing revenue due to a reduction in clients and their interest in spending "recreational" funds. Prices are going up, and will continue to go up to rent facilities. That's just the way the track operators are working this economy. It's a poor business model, but they're doing it anyway.

I guess my question is how can others undercut PCA prices by half?
Tuesday Dano I'll pick ya up and we can share a beer at Robert's Tuesday round table, ok?

Extremespeedtrackevents.com will be at Willow Springs Streets of Willow - January 8-9th for a track day,all drivers will have a special track day price of only $105.00 (DISCOUNT CODE IS sow5) for a whole day of fun.Any Questions contact Chris Willard at chris@extremespeedtrackevents. com (co founder of REDLINE Time Attacks and now new owner of EXTREMESPEEDTRACKEVENTS.COM) or register at Extreme Speed Track Events
Free on track help for beginner
Must register before Dec 20 for discount

[Mmagus]

FWIW:
Times are tough. It appears the tracks are loosing revenue due to a reduction in clients and their interest in spending "recreational" funds. Prices are going up, and will continue to go up to rent facilities. That's just the way the track operators are working this economy. It's a poor business model, but they're doing it anyway.

I guess my question is how can others undercut PCA prices by half?
Tuesday Dano I'll pick ya up and we can share a beer at Robert's Tuesday round table, ok?

Extremespeedtrackevents.com will be at Willow Springs Streets of Willow - January 8-9th for a track day,all drivers will have a special track day price of only $105.00 (DISCOUNT CODE IS sow5) for a whole day of fun.Any Questions contact Chris Willard at chris@extremespeedtrackevents. com (co founder of REDLINE Time Attacks and now new owner of EXTREMESPEEDTRACKEVENTS.COM) or register at Extreme Speed Track Events
Free on track help for beginner
Must register before Dec 20 for discount

I don't know this for sure...but I would think that the simple answer is volume. They hope to have every leadfoot, speed addict, wannabe, yahoo out there that they can regardless of ability. Then toss them in with the great experienced drivers (such as yourself) based on car hp/design or the like and simply let them have at it. If they have a boatload of drivers, the cost per person goes down.

[gulf911]

Actually Mark thats incorrect. They have separate groups based on experience and capabilities, it is not a free for all. There are groups that charge similar fees for 1 day events and max out attendance at 35 cars. Unfortunately we are not the only game in town and most if not all the others charge based on venue not on a series for a year.

[kleggo]

but I do know that racing a Porsche is not a cheap hobby. Make it as reasonable as you can, and get on with it. All the different new fees seem like smoke and mirrors. . Find the right dollar figure and post it.

My two cents...

this guy is a voice of reason!

Craig

[Mmagus]

While it is good to hear that its not a free for all, dosn't the "anyone can attend" concept still apply? If so for that specific event its mainly a matter of volume. I am sure that if were were not to make our event a PCA-centric one but marketed it to anyone or even just to car clubs, we would see pricing similar to what they are charging. By the way I am NOT suggesting we do this.

4Est, I would favor a one price format rather than optional costs as well.

[kary]

I have not driven with PCA in some years for a few reasons. One is I like to race not just time trial. PCA race schedule is scattered around the country making it impractical. POC race schedule is close but can vary from Arizona, Nevada, and northern california as well as Southern California. Next POC offers what PCA has and much more, though POC is also struggling to get TT volume and have done many things to positively encourage participation, not discourage it. Like offer first timer's free events, allow time trialers on the bigger tracks that normally they do not belong on, and finally, offer discounts on some key events for everyone. POC is more exepensive then the PCA TT events but the track time is much more and the driving caliber in most cases is much higher (Race groups, PD group is like the PCA TT group to me). I do not agree that TT is integral to a TT. In POC some people TT and some do not even if they are in the TT group or race groups, it is an option and it never costs more money to run if you chose to sign up for TT that day.... It is crazy to me to pay extra if I chooe to TT on Saturday or Sunday (POC has two TT's sometimes in a weekend).

Next I have also driven with Speed Ventures, very reasonable pricing even for big venues like Fontana (They share venues with other clubs whcih POC has done successfully also). Next POC has also opened up car models to other German cars and though Italian things too to get volume up. Getting out of the box can be fun as can racing around with a Ferrari 430, Cobra, and GT40's. If PCA TT is having issues offer something positivie, raising fees and particularly late fees will not work so I suggest opening up the field and even joining in with other clubs at the same events to make the payments for the rental of the track. POC has done this quite effectively at expensive venues like Laguna Seca, Fontana, las Vegas (inner)etc.

Another suggestion would be to try closer venues like El Toro, as Spring Mountain seems to be kinda far for many particularly in these times. POC has seen a lower turn out for geographically further events.

For me it has simply been one of club choice and personal circumstances, but hopefully some of these ideas or a combination or variation of these ideas might help the PCA TT series grow and become more appealling to more people.

Kary