Why aren't you autocrossing? A chance to say why.

[Dan Chambers]

I guess some people just don't get it.

Only 1 Dan, Only 1...

Well at least you admit it, ol' fella.

Tail between my legs?.. I was TTing before you could spell the word youngster. Although I usually waited until I was competitive at ax before moving up..
I'll loan you my knitting needles...

Oh, so you'll be at Willow? Good. I'll be sure to point you bye ... in the pits.

As for competitive ... yeah, I'm slow. I only have a couple of big-track records in class. I guess my AX/TT records do speak for themselves. I see you're as good at doing your history homework as you are at math. As George W. said: "Facts? Your going to muddy the issue with facts?"

Nice trading barbs with you, "stretch". Just like old times.

John, sorry for the kidnapping of the topic. Now, back to the real issues.

[gulf911]

[ChuckS]

Bob,

I held off commenting for as long as I can.

There are a lot of reasons that attendance has diminished, not just one or two. It is complicated, to say the least. As one who has run the program in the past, I am familiar with what is required to make it successful, including the real costs of the program, the sheer number of volunteers needed and maybe even why some of the issues exist.

Many have been noted above, but many others remain unspoken or unrecorded. I and several others who used to AX very regularly, do not wish to make some of our opinions public for a variety of reasons. If you want to call me, I would share some of them with you.

PCASDR AX is not unlike any other business. You offer a product at a price. If the target customer likes your product and feels that it is a good value, he or she buys it. If, for any reason, they do not like the product, the price, the rules of using the product, the way it is presented or the people selling or servicing it, they have the option of buying elsewhere.

It appears that many have gone elsewhere. So, the way to stay in business is to offer your product to a wider variety of potential customers, and hope that works. The alternative (proposed here by some) is to raise the price to overcome the loss of customers. The problem is that Economics 101 teaches us the basics of the price-elasticity curve that says if you raise the price - fewer people will buy. Even if you were able to offset the lost revenue of even fewer customers (which I sincerely doubt), you would not have enough people to run the event, which Kim C has detailed for you.

Given the reality of what we have, the organizers have done what many, many other PCA regions in the rest of the country have done for years. They have reached out to "potential customers" in other car clubs and invited them to come play with us. In many areas of the US, the Porsche and BMW clubs often run events together.

And, it works. I have not driven, but have attended parts of the last few AX events. They were well run, well attended and fun as well as being financially in the black. The X car issue may be a band-aid for some of the real issues and, of course the economy, but it is the only viable short term fix for the problems - and it seems to be working.

[Bill]

I would like to offer a new rule for the forum:

In no case shall the time spent writing forum posts on autocrossing exceed the time actually spent autocrossing in any one year.

(Note: In a recent exchange, one person had 8 posts (participated in ONE AX).

[Dan Chambers]

Likewise, but after double checking TT history of your 'current' car, you know the one you own and drive now?...
My statements are not only warranted but documented.....and I'll stand by them...
Or should I include the 911e I no longer own?
Diatribe over...

Check again who carried the 2008 IS Buttonwillow Track Record at the TT.

"Your so pretty."

Done.

[rshon]

Say Bob et all...what is your point of gathering this info? What do you intend to do to SOLVE any problems you identified?

I think the opinions expressed are of interest to current and prospective board members, chairs, and volunteers, and hopefully are taken to heart by those who make this club work. The logistical and organizational issues are relatively easy to fix with a little work.

On the attendance side, for any club member involvement will have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Even very involved members will, over time, change the kind of events they participate in, and at some point, eventually reduce their participation. So we need to increase our membership on a continual basis, as well as increasing the participation of the members we already have. I cannot tell you how many members I have met at our tent at the Coronado Speed Fest over the years who tell me that Coronado is the only club event they attend. We need to change this.

I have some ideas that I intend to bring to the board about how to attack this, as well as some ways to grow the other parts of the club in the process. But we must always remember our number one goal is TO HAVE FUN(!).

[jenniferreinhardt]

Russell Shon - it is good to hear from another Board candidate, especially that you have ideas to improve the club, and will be presenting them and I'm sure following up to put the ideas to work. Thank you. You've got my vote!

We've also heard from Don Middleton on his ideas, and some of the existing Board Members have given their opinions.

As for Jackie and I in pre-registration, it is our last year. Deb Sharp may continue, but is uncertain.
So, as far as the Instructor issue goes...
It would be good to get a system in place now for the ability to better comply with the Instructors who ask not to instruct at an AX. If anyone has any ideas of improvement in that area they would like to offer, we would appreciate it. Please pm one of us or speak with us at an AX and not on this thread.

[Bob Gagnon]

I would like to offer a new rule for the forum:

In no case shall the time spent writing forum posts on autocrossing exceed the time actually spent autocrossing in any one year.

(Note: In a recent exchange, one person had 8 posts (participated in ONE AX).

I guess that could be me, but when I read Carl's editorial, I wondered if there would even be much of an autocross left for me to run my 993 project, which as you can see here in my shop has a ways to go.

So, I started this thread.

[Kim Crosser]

I guess that could be me, but when I read Carl's editorial, I wondered if there would even be much of an autocross left for me to run my 993 project, which as you can see here in my shop has a ways to go.

As Mark Twain would say, "The reports of my death have been much exaggerated."
The AX is alive and well - thanks in part to the infusion of some new blood, and if some of that blood is riding in X-cars, I for one have no problem with that.
It has been several years since AX was a "cash cow" for the Club. Stadium fee increases, increasing costs for port-a-potties, beverages, even ice continue to push the cost numbers higher, while (for lots of reasons discussed above) the attendance has declined. When we consistently had 110+ drivers (at only $40 each) and Stadium fees were only $1500, we had plenty of corner workers and the financials looked great.
After a 33% increase in costs, but only a 25% increase in fees and a 10-15% decrease in drivers, the AX events were struggling to break even. Plus, we were always short of corner workers when we got fewer than 95 drivers.

What hasn't changed is the "fun factor". The tracks are just as fun and challenging, the smack talk just as refreshing, and the cameraderie is still there. And guess what - the X-car drivers are active participants and just as much into cars as Porsche-philes.

So get that car finished and c'mon down and find out that the events are just as much fun as they used to be AND they are back in the black AND we have a bigger pool of corner workers AND some new folks who would be happy to talk cars and driving tactics.

[martinreinhardt]

Bob - I like your new project and can't wait to see it completed. Knowing you it will be something special.

[John Straub]

I was going to post something about what Kim said....BUT...I guess I have already violated Bill's golden rule.

I would like to offer a new rule for the forum:

In no case shall the time spent writing forum posts on autocrossing exceed the time actually spent autocrossing in any one year.

(Note: In a recent exchange, one person had 8 posts (participated in ONE AX).

So there you go. Another good way to turn members off.

John

[rshon]

So, as far as the Instructor issue goes...
It would be good to get a system in place now for the ability to better comply with the Instructors who ask not to instruct at an AX. If anyone has any ideas of improvement in that area they would like to offer, we would appreciate it.

Jennifer -
The instructor issue is also a supply issue. As far as instructors, and AX’s in general, we need to do whatever possible to make life as easy as possible for the event chairs, instructors, and volunteers. Maybe even to the point of making the jobs (more) attractive/sexy/desirable. As suggested previously, we can help in this regard by putting together and/or recapturing planning guides, procedures, and schedules for the newer event chairs, based upon the years of experience from the current and previous ones. Possibly put together preparatory documents/guides for students and new participants, so that they know what to expect and already come into the event with some “book knowledge”. And also look for ways to incentivize folks to commit some of their valuable time to chairing, instructing, and volunteering with the other necessary tasks. I’m sure there are other things we can discuss to make the jobs more attractive. But it will take some time to develop this to the point of "sexiness". We can work with the board and the chairs to flesh these concepts out...

[Kim Crosser]

I actually enjoy instructing, but I have been requessting to not instruct due to the hassle of jumping in and out of a car to reset timing. Plus, if I have a beginning student and should ride with them in timed runs, that takes me out of the timing trailer for 1/3 of the timed runs, and we rarely have lots of extra timing crew (since most/all of us are also driving).

That said, when we run short of instructors, I am available and willing to help.

Instructing should not be viewed as a "chore" - it is an opportunity to help someone else improve their skills, and it can double your time to absorb the track and plan your line.

Steve McKay has been very good about pairing newbie students with experienced non-instructor corner workers, to avoid instructors having to do double-duty. (BTW, this gets a lot easier when we have 110+ drivers...)

Yes, instructing takes some time away from hanging with buds in the pits, but that time with a student works out to around 45-60 minutes of the day - after your hour of driving, that still leaves you with 6+ hours to hang and talk...

[Jackie C]

Now THAT's what I'm talkin about! "Sexy" Shon gets all 3 of my votes! John when WAS the last time you've autocrossed anyway? Was it because of the earlier comment you made about women slighting women? By all means please DO respond...

[Bob Gagnon]

Instructing should not be viewed as a "chore" - it is an opportunity to help someone else improve their skills, and it can double your time to absorb the track and plan your line.

Around our house, my wife views doing the dishes a "chore" and I view it as a time to think about the day and I actually get a sense of accomplishment from it. I try to get my wife to look at dish washing as I do, but she still says it is a chore to her and try as I may to change that view, I cannot.