Final Zone 8 proposals

[Dan Chambers]

Okay, Okay! Now that we've cleared the air and solved the miscommunications issue, let's get back to the subject that matters: rules!

Now, I know it's early, however I suggest those parties that are interested in formulating a more fair and equitable rule for different classes begin the process of organizing things. I, for one, agree that there are huge discrepancies in the AM class. There are other issues as well.

So, how 'bout try to plan a get-together and begin the process of submitting a change in the rules? Those interested parties can meet in the pits or at the end of the next DE or autocross and start a constructive approach to writing a rules change. Delegate some responsibility to the cause. Find who is best at what part of the changes that are needed and get it started. Take on some personal responsibility and effort to affect positive change. As someone who's submitted a rules change, I have limited - albeit succcesful - experience in drafting these kinds of things. I can offer support and help. In my opinion the best voices are those with lots of time spent in AM class for the issues in AM.

To affect change, everyone has to put in a little something / a little effort. I have interest in changing other rules besides AM class, and I'd welcome input from the experienced members regarding my issues. My perverbial door is open; come talk to me if you want.

See you guys down the road.........

[Curt]

Please bear with us, put up with it for one more year good-naturedly and we guarantee will fix it next year.

While the sarcasm is so thick here that it is dripping out of my monitor, I think this may actually be all that we can do at this point. Be patient. It would take some kind of heroic effort to change the published process at this point in time, but I think I know now how to make a proposal that will fix things next year and have it accepted, at least. I have learned a lot from the process this year. It is a classing issue, not a points issue.

TT

You know Tom, there was no sarcasm intended. I would have been disappointed, sure, but this club is for fun and these are volunteers and deserve some latitude. When it all got turned around and all blame placed on us, well, that is when it got tough to take and the took over. It wasn't just blind faith on our part, was it? Didn't we have it on pretty good authority that we were covered?

[Michael Dolphin]

I am a member of the rules committee -- and I have certainly monitored this thread and made note of a number of posts.

I am motivated by Tom's rational and calm argument in a number of areas and have indeed added them to a punchlist for next year's review process. Of these posts, only a very small number offer calm and rational constructive criticism of the process.

I don't necessarily need to defend myself as being a volunteer who gives countless hours of rules review as well as non-compensed travel and attendance at driving events in three states throughout Zone 8 -- but I do appreciate that at least a couple of you give committee members some credit for that volunteerism. And I certainly hope that you realize that we have no "dogs in the fight" when it comes to certain rules and our own particpation.

And it may have been my quote that "committee members don't make the rules, we present the proposals for voting by the Presidents". Even in that repsonsibility, we try to make a cogent and informed presentation of what it is that we have. I do know that we often go back to the proposer for clarification before our discussion -- and then sometimes find in the group discussion that we really did miss a key point from jump street; that is we thought we understood it until someone voiced a different interpreation.

But, with all that said, I will never become a regular contributor to this forum to be subjected to the sniping and derision that is openly voiced with disdain and disrespect. This job does not pay enough.

We try to do a good job -- any of us is replaceable if you desire to take the position. But remeber that the Zone 8 position represents thirteen Regions, not just one.

However, as I prepare for what I intend to be my last year in service to the entirety of this club, I do hope to leave one legacy effort behind. In 2007, I intend to form a sub-committee of Autocross reps from each Region to have our own group discussions on a few rules issues as well as offering some administrative/mangement protocols across the Region so that our members who do travel can find more similiarities across all 13 Regions in processes of registration, number assignments, run group assignments and scheduling, instructor/students pairing processes and more.

This is always a work in progress - unless a car is never changed from the way that Porsche built it..

[Gary Burch]

Tom, thanks for the link to the Rule Responses. What good is this if nobody ever sees it? I did hear from Michael Dolphin once concerning my proposal, but that was it. volunteering for the rules commitee is a hard job and time consuming but it's not like you get drafted. You know the load going in.

Why don't we just make our own rules? Every region is different anyway. So when we have a Zone 8 Event here we will put all the out of town 911's in GS and GP and every one else in AM.

[Curt]

I apologize, but earlier in this thread I had said that our President had been contacted by another member regarding this issue and that she had not responded. The truth of the matter is she was only asked in the email to monitor this thread and has been doing so this whole time. I apologize for insinuating that we were not being responded to.

Curt

[ttweed]

It wasn't just blind faith on our part, was it? Didn't we have it on pretty good authority that we were covered?

Yes, Curt, I understand your position completely, and I will give you an "Amen" on that, but one of the things I have learned is that very active participation in this process is the way to get the desired outcome.

I, for instance, should have let you, Dan, Mick, and JR know about my proposal this year and asked you to send in formal comments in support of it. If they had received 5 comments on the issue, it would have opened some eyes sooner that maybe there was something important involved. There may have been more interactions, and possibly revelations, regarding these issues prior to now which may have precipitated an entirely different result. I may have actually realized earlier that dealing with points penalties wouldn't fix it.

I will definitely enlist your aid next year.

TT

[ttweed]

I don't necessarily need to defend myself as being a volunteer who gives countless hours of rules review as well as non-compensed travel and attendance at driving events in three states throughout Zone 8...

You cetainly do not have to defend yourself, Michael, and that is precisely the kind of fallout, or unintended consequence, of these kinds of conflicts that should be avoided at all costs. If the end result is that well-meaning and hard-working volunteers are discouraged from contributing their time and effort, the Club will be diminished and WE ALL LOSE! No unfair rule, no matter how harsh, is worth that consequence.

And it may have been my quote that "committee members don't make the rules, we present the proposals for voting by the Presidents".

Actually, that was a quote from the Zone 8 Rules Chair in an emailed response to one of my submissions.

I will never become a regular contributor to this forum to be subjected to the sniping and derision that is openly voiced with disdain and disrespect.

I would hope this would not be the outcome of your (or any other volunteer's) regular participation here, and is the basis for my plea for civility and calm, reasonable discourse, although some of the jokes are pretty funny...there is some entertainment value here that cannot be stifled, I'm afraid.

TT

[Curt]

I also think that Michael is looking in from the outside and may not realize that many of us in this thread have several years of history with each other with 99.9% of it being positive. We know each other, have beers with each other after the events, trash talk each others results and some dubious choices in cars. We try and show one another in as many messed up, Photoshopped pictures as possible and on rare occasions get good footage of some interesting race lines through the desert. Most of this ends up on this message board.

Some of the people on "opposite sides" of this issue have covered each others cars and trailers with toilet paper in the hotel parking lots in the middle of the night. Some of us have cordoned off each others cars with yellow, "Caution: Police Line Do Not Cross" tape everytime the unsuspecting driver has to go to the bathroom or sleep. Middle of the night prank phone calls, cars being wedged and blocked into parking places in hotel lots, etc etc. Some of us even give each other good, friendly advice like "don't ever eat the seafood buffet in the middle of the desert in Pahrump". Of course that was after we ate it and before we all became very sorry we ate it.

So what I'm trying to say, is to my friends that I have pissed off or offended I am very sorry. To people I don't know, I'm sorry if I made this region look bad. I have belonged to other regions in this Zone and am glad I am here.

Sometimes you pour so much time and money and literal blood and sweat into your car that when you get to an event, you want to feel like in the right hands your car is capable of winning its assigned class. Mine no longer is and I guess that is about 1% as important as I was making it out to be. You know, I leave the wife and the little kidlets all alone for a long weekend and I feel a little guilty and think that maybe that Blue ribbon would really give me something to show them as being worth my time and their sacrifice for me. It turns out, hanging out with you goofballs is what it's really all about, I'm even talking about some of the 944 guys.

So 3.6's in AM for 2007 is a dead issue for me which is a good thing because that's the way it's gonna be. I catch on quick, don't I? To the Rules Committee members who aren't totally dedicated to my personal satisfaction above all else in the rules, I'll let you slide this year but please next year lets get those priorities straight

Thank you to the RC members for trying to make this club a better club and an apology, again for not taking my anti-arsehole pills for several days now.

[Red Rooster]

then the cookies stopped...

......you were no longer worthy of the Mutha Tom's Chocolate Chip Macadamia Nut cookies as a reward, Dan.

....You make me smile Tom....

Gracias Amigo.

[Jad]

[quote="gulf911
Just for fun I looked at the standings for GSS in 2000 and reminisced a bit. Tom was running GP and cleaning up, as was Lewis in AM, and Steve G as usual... I lost 3 in a row to Mr. John Kincaid (944) in that year and Jad was close behind. There was no huge desparigy in times. It went back and forth and Jad won his share as well. While there was weight and torque advantages, there was balance and tire size on the other. Perhaps the advantages could have been amplified by a better driver , but I drove the car pretty hard and 944's were still on my tail, make a mistake and that was it. Tom taught me a lot early on, even when we were in the same class he would lend tips for improvement..... then the cookies stopped...
I guess I just wanted to emphasize the gap between the 944 and the 911E in GSS was not the same gap as what AM is faced with today. Jad, John and the 944's knew they could win by outdriving me, and on many occaisions did just that. Here's to you guys!! [/quote]

Dan, that was a bit misleading, you won the first 2 and the last 5 events, many by 2-3 seconds , it was total domination except for 3 events in the middle where something happened? Dead tires, engine problems? I don't know, but none of the other times were even close. It was clearly a problem, and yes it took 2-3 years to fix, but a solution was finally found. Turns out to have been the wrong solution, but trial and error is how rules often work. I hate to degrade the n/a 944, but lowering it(or at least giving them their own class) does clearly appear to be the solution there, and re-instating HM handles the other end. TT seems to have been right on both accounts. I knew there just had to be ONE smart 911 driver

K class seems to be the only class where a bizarre mix of completely different cars, 4-6-8 cylinder, front and rear engined, 2 and 4 wheel drive, turbo charged and N/A cars are all pretty darn even Though, I think someone setting out to BUILD a car for that class could probably take advantage of certain rules and dominate. It just hasn't happened. The unlimited boost for 7 points rule is an unexploited loophole I feel. The point is, mixing and matching very different cars in the same class is risky.

[ttweed]

....You make me smile Tom....

Thanks, JR, if we can't laugh about this we are doomed!

The only guy I had to cut off faster than Dan was Long Mike! He came in a few years ago with his stock 3.2 RS-clone and his engaging "help a poor newbie out" smile and in 3 or 4 events was beating me in my own class! "No more tips for you!", Mikey, as a certain Seinfeld character might say.

Now he has taken his natural talent and improved his car to the point where I can only eat his dust!

TT

[ttweed]

K class seems to be the only class where a bizarre mix of completely different cars, 4-6-8 cylinder, front and rear engined, 2 and 4 wheel drive, turbo charged and N/A cars are all pretty darn even

This amazes me as well, Jad--KP class has gotten to be the most competitive and fun class to watch this year by far. It has to be due somewhat to the drivers and the way they have pushed each other to new levels, though. You and Bill and Martin are all at the sharp end of the skill pile in this club and your performances have been unbelieveable this year! Congrats to all 3 of you, regardless of who ends up winning KP. It is the closest, fiercest class battle at every event and very exciting to watch.

The unlimited boost for 7 points rule is an unexploited loophole I feel.

Do I hear an evil plan hatching here?

The truth of the matter is that I have no illusions about my driving skills or my car, despite the nice words offered in this thread by several people. The fact is that Erik Kinninger is a phenomenal driver. That kid could get in my car and beat me by 2 seconds, I have no doubt. He has incredible natural talent, far beyond what I was born with, and despite his age, has tons of experience from his kart racing. His dad is no slouch of a driver, and look what happens when he puts him in his car!

While I will never be able to drive it on Erik's level, I do believe that I could make my car the equal of the Carrera and get a little closer--all it would take is gobs of more time and money. My 3.4 is far from a fully developed motor, and I could probably get 50 more HP out of it without taking any more points, since I already take the maximum under the rules. If converted to higher compression, with ITB EFI and a Motec EMS, then a lot of dyno tuning, engines like mine are making north of 340 HP in the GT3S club racing cars. They just don't live all that long in that state of tune and are rebuilt regularly to insure reliability. Being of average means and mechanical skills, I simply cannot afford to take it to that level. What Mark has done with a relatively reliable 3.6 base is soooo much more economical and effective that it borders on genius. My hat's off to him.

TT

[chris&lori]

I also think that Michael is looking in from the outside and may not realize that many of us in this thread have several years of history with each other with 99.9% of it being positive. We know each other, have beers with each other after the events, trash talk each others results and some dubious choices in cars. We try and show one another in as many messed up, Photoshopped pictures as possible and on rare occasions get good footage of some interesting race lines through the desert. Most of this ends up on this message board.

Some of the people on "opposite sides" of this issue have covered each others cars and trailers with toilet paper in the hotel parking lots in the middle of the night. Some of us have cordoned off each others cars with yellow, "Caution: Police Line Do Not Cross" tape everytime the unsuspecting driver has to go to the bathroom or sleep. Middle of the night prank phone calls, cars being wedged and blocked into parking places in hotel lots, etc etc. Some of us even give each other good, friendly advice like "don't ever eat the seafood buffet in the middle of the desert in Pahrump". Of course that was after we ate it and before we all became very sorry we ate it.

So what I'm trying to say, is to my friends that I have pissed off or offended I am very sorry. To people I don't know, I'm sorry if I made this region look bad. I have belonged to other regions in this Zone and am glad I am here.

Sometimes you pour so much time and money and literal blood and sweat into your car that when you get to an event, you want to feel like in the right hands your car is capable of winning its assigned class. Mine no longer is and I guess that is about 1% as important as I was making it out to be. You know, I leave the wife and the little kidlets all alone for a long weekend and I feel a little guilty and think that maybe that Blue ribbon would really give me something to show them as being worth my time and their sacrifice for me. It turns out, hanging out with you goofballs is what it's really all about, I'm even talking about some of the 944 guys.

So 3.6's in AM for 2007 is a dead issue for me which is a good thing because that's the way it's gonna be. I catch on quick, don't I? To the Rules Committee members who aren't totally dedicated to my personal satisfaction above all else in the rules, I'll let you slide this year but please next year lets get those priorities straight

Thank you to the RC members for trying to make this club a better club and an apology, again for not taking my anti-arsehole pills for several days now.

I just wanted to say that Curt hit the nail on the head. Or maybe I sould say that Curt hit the big orange helmet on my head.

Ok Dan A, incert your photo shop genius one more time.

Chris O'

[ttweed]

So, how 'bout try to plan a get-together and begin the process of submitting a change in the rules?

Dan-
I would be happy to participate in any "focus group" effort towards this end, but I also believe I could now make some proposals that would fix the situation and garner widespread support for them next year without doing this, but it might help to "fine-tune" my proposals ahead of time and gain insights from more brains applied to the task.

I have, however, thought of one thing that might still be done this year to at least fix the "old" AM problem and help equalize the "second tier" group of early car drivers. This would not involve any rule change at this point, but a modification of the "response to the proposals" crafted by the RC before it is presented to the Presidents in Nov.

Specifically, I am talking about my Proposal #30, which Paul has stated was not understood by the RC. He has also stated in this thread that he was under the impression that a modified car could use the update/backdate rule in a way that differs from my strict, literal interpretation of it, allowing a "T" or Normal model on the same model line in the chart to be considered as having been upgraded to "S" specs at some time in the past before it was modified beyond stock specs. If his interpretation of the rule is correct, and that has always been the intent with the update/backdate provisions, then my proposal was unnecessary, as the rules already provide for this possibility.

If the RC are all of the same mind as Paul, and my subsequent explanations of my reasons for the proposal here have clarified it somewhat, then all that has to be done is to change the response to my proposal to be something like: "This proposal is unnecessary, as the intent of the existing rule is to allow such "virtual" or "hypothetical" updates within an existing model line, even when the car has been modified beyond the Stock classes."

This response document would then serve as a "clarification" to the existing rule, and no change to it would be necessary. A competitor could point to the clairification as justification for calculating his engine swap points on a 911T the same as an S model on the same line would, if protested. I did not give an example in my proposal of it, but I believe there are also some difference in published weights for different models on the same line in the chart, so this would equalize the early cars in the weight area as well, for determining points penalties in the modified classes.

Does this make sense? Is it feasible at this late date?

It will not solve the whole classing issue, but at one time there were a lot of "stock engine swap" cars running in AM that were penalized differently while being identical except for the model designation. Now that JR and Mike G. have modified their motors, maybe Dan A. is the only one who would still be effected by this, but I think it is necessary for future competitors and/or cars in the other modified classes besides AM to level competition.

Thx,
TT

[ttweed]

Does this make sense? Is it feasible at this late date?

The silence in this thread is deafening. Did everyone quit reading it after the "group hug" and go home?

Seriously, if my suggestion is inappropriate, or needs more explanation, I would like to know. If the RC is not aware of it because they are not tuned in here, maybe I should be laying the whole issue out in an email to them instead?

How does one obtain a formal clarification of a provision of the rules anyway? I have never seen a formal procedure outlined for that. Only by a protest, where the decision of the protest committee determines the proper interpretation of a rule? Or can one write a letter to the RC at any time, outlining the issues and asking for their "take" on it?

I am unclear about this, and it seems to me that the language of the "update/backdate" rule is certainly open to different interpretations. I would like to obtain some clarity on it, and will do whatever is the correct process to go about it.

I realize that it has only been a few days since I posted my suggestion above regarding the "Response to Proposals", and perhaps I am just being impatient? I can understand that it would take some time and effort to get the RC together and all up to speed and on the same page, to formally address such an issue. I will go back to lurk mode now.

Thx,
TT