PORSCHE Driving School

[MikeD]

If you give PCA advance (1 week?) notice then other Porsche owners on the wait list may be able to attend, if so you will receive a full refund.

And receive priority entry into the next PDS?

I can’t see the consistency, Deny an adult PCA member in a newer car, permit a teenager with a bad driving record in an old car?

And... due to limitations of the cars mechanical abilities, could not even do the excercises correctly. So what could the student have been learning?

I think it is important, as Robert stated to give the chairs lattitude in making decisions. But I also think it is important to maintain consistency over time. Which can be extremely difficult when AX/PDS/QDE chairs change from year to year. I think this is why people are asking for policy. Because this seems to be the only way to ensure consist rulings from year to year in these events.

If you look at the TT series as an example. The same people have been managing that series for a number of years. There is not, to the best of my knowledge an official "policy" regarding non-Porsche's and non-members at TT's because Jack and Robert have been very consistent about their rulings on this matter. But if Jack and Robert (and myself to a lesser extent) decide not to chair this series any longer, this undocumented "policy" could likely change thereby instigating complaints.

So what can we learn from this? No policy, no complaints. Why? Because even without policy there is consistency. So, if there is consistency with the ruling in these other events (PDS, AX, QDE) then there will likely be fewer complaints. This seems like a natural conclusion to me.

Mike, correct me if I am wrong, but you would have been fine with any ruling as long as it had been consistent. Your wife had to drive a Porsche, so teenage son must also drive Porsche. Had that happened, no "smoke", right?

[Carl Scragg]

This has been a mostly constructive discourse and I am hoping we can continue in a positive manner. I now see that there are considerations that did not occur to me because my focus was on the students. I failed to adequately consider how our instructors would feel about being asked to instruct in some non-Porsche. Since our volunteers are the backbone of the program, the CDI's cannot afford to ignore their views.

But I'd like to refocus this discussion somewhat. I've never considered admitting anyone to the school who is not a PCA member -- that's a non-issue. The only non-Porsches allowed into the school were either: (1) a replacement vehicle due to a mechanical breakdown; or (2) the daily driver for a minor family member. I would be interested in instructor input on how the CDI's should respond to these specific situations, because they will certainly arise again.

(1) If a member has received notification that he's been accepted into the PDS, then suffers a mechanical failure, how do we decide whether or not to permit the use of a substitute vehicle?

(2) I believe that in the past the club has permitted the minor children of members to attend the PDS using their own cars rather than their parent's Porsche. Is this something we wish to continue or not? Expand to include a member's spouse?

Should our response to these situations depend on the marque of the substitute vehicle? It's performance capability? How early we are notified?

Note that in only one case did the decision to permit substitute vehicles have any impact on the waiting list -- so I think this issue has been somewhat over-emphasized. The 2 minors had been accepted into the school and the only question was whether they drove their father's Porsche or their own daily driver. The 996 driver broke down mid-day on Saturday. Only in the case where I permitted the use of the Lotus after Robert lost the transmission on his Porsche competing at Fontana, could my decision have permitted anyone on the waiting list to move up one slot (and that wouldn't have helped the 997 driver who was turned away -- he was still well down the list).

The CDI's just organize the event, the instructors make it a success. So please let us know your opinions, either on the forum, or by direct email, or in person. Thanks.

[Dan Chambers]

I think it's important to remember that this PDS was no different that those of the past in respect to non-Marque vehicles. We've had a Ferrari, BMW's, other Mustangs, even a 914 with a Chevy V8 shortblock at the schools in the past. Carl has not done anything extrodinary here.

Should we now start a policy that states that "if for unforeseen reason your Porsche is not available 1 week prior to the school; and you were accepted 6 weeks prior to the Friday night commencement, you'l be automatically signed up for the next consecutive PDS, and an alternative will be selected from the wait-list."? If a pair of drivers sharing a single vehicle decide that one of them is unable or uninterested in driving the Porsche: and wants a second vehicle, do we bump one of them / both of them: to be replaced by an alternativee on the wait-list? These and other tough questions will be discussed by the CDI's.

Now a little off topic here: What was unique was our decision to strictly limit the school to a set number of participants/students. Why? For my part, I wanted the students to have the highest quality experience during the event. Based on the number of Volunteer Instructors, this meant the number we went with for a fair ratio of Students to Instructors. And, more importantly to me, it was to give the Instructors a tiny bit of a break from a schedule that has seen AX, TT, Speed Fest, PDS, AX, TT back to back every weekend, ending April 24th .... with another A-X May 13th! That is a lot of competitive driving/instructing back to back to back for our pool of Instructors. The Instructors are the backbone of the PDS. So .... believe it or not, I was thinking of you Instructors out there when discussing the participant numbers. That we had a few "adjustments" at the last minute in terms of vehicles, was coincedental.

So, let's remember that Carl was acting under a precedent established long before he volunteered as CDI, and Gary and I support him on the calls he made.

Tom Tweed raises a good point about setting an example. Would we not be somewhat hypocritical if we demanded to have only Porsches driven by students, then show up with Lotus/Noble/Bimmer/Ferrari/Cooper MiniS's/Formula Ford/etc for "our 25 minutes of driving" (which, btw: we extended a bit for the Instructor's sake)?

The opinions of the Instructors, Board members, and general membership are important, and "we three" will be sitting down to discuss all this and more, when all the comments are in. For now, work with us to ensure that the quality experience of the PDS for both Students, and Instructors remains as high as we can make it. So, keep those suggestions and ideas coming.

Thanks for all your comment and suggestions.

[Robert]

I agree this is quite a constructive discussion, which I think is great. David and Mike D's points about policy and consistency are well taken. If something generates enough controversy, then it probably does make sense to set a policy. I would just reiterate that there will always be new situations that will come up where there is no policy. And then we need to decide if it's worth creating one and tacking it onto what's already there. If you attempt to create a policy for every situation, you end up with something that looks like the US tax code. When it gets too cumbersome, it becomes difficult and not very fun to deal with. This is where Chair discretion, applied fairly, comes in. As an example, the TT rules are on the verge of becoming impossible to enforce, especially with the changes the Zone currently has in place for 2007. Jack and I along with Steve G are working with the Board on fixing that so that we don't get into a situation where the complexities of enforcement kill the fun of the event or create a liability issue (while keeping safety as a first priority, of course).

Apologies to Mike G who I know wants to limit the discussion to what to do specifically about the PDS. I can totally understand his frustration. But since David started the thread and clarified that his intent was to discuss policy policy (if there is such a thing), I took it as OK to continue that part of the discussion.

[harnishclan]

Haven't seen this great of a dialogue since the Porsche Warranty voids for competitive events thread! How about defining parameters (i.e. policy) for participation.
1. Must be a P-car
2. If said P-car breaks more than 7 days before event, then you don't attend that PDS. But get priority for next event.
3. If said P-car breaks during the event, then alternates, provided they are both safe and able to perform at/near/above P-car standards okay (an event chair discretion).

Above all, chairs for this event did a great job (my wife is still telling people how many times she spun out and consequently learned) and made appropriate "command decisions" based on the information they had at the time. Policy will simply the decision process by creating some pre-planned responses to events that are likely to happen. They don't have to eliminate autonomy of the the chairs to operate within a framework.

[Mike]

The SDR PCA does have some fun and reponsive chairs.
The chairs are aware of my concerns, the issues will be addressed, thank you.

Who do you tell when they can't bring what car?
When do you give priority to the wait list?

Tough decisions.
You guys do a great job, please carry on.
You have heard plenty form me today hopefully others will chime in or PM a chair with their views as well.
Thanks for listening.
Group hug,
Mike

PS Jad the house was on fire.

[David J Marguglio]

Would we not be somewhat hypocritical if we demanded to have only Porsches driven by students, then show up with Lotus/Noble/Bimmer/Ferrari/Cooper MiniS's/Formula Ford/etc for "our 25 minutes of driving"

Not at all. I feel, and I believe most of the other instructors would agree, that the little bit of driving that we get at the end of the weekend is more or less a small reward for the 20+ hours of volunteering. I can not imagine anyone begrudging an instructor their reward for bringing a Noble, BMW, sports racer, etc. Moreover, it can be a highly entertaining end to a long weekend. No issue there.

Likewise, Dan, I dont see an issue with the number of students being limited based on the availability of instructors. Who brought that up?

Since I started the thread, I will unilaterally proclaim that the issue is about non-P cars. It is not about should we allow one that is necessitated by a broken P-car on Saturday; of course we should! It is not about whether we should allow them to attend events that are undersubscribed; (i.e. TT's) of course we should! It is about establishing a policy for an issue that comes up several times every year. It is not just about the school, this issue comes up all the time for autocross. I dont see the point in reiterating my earlier proposal, if you are interested, please my previous post.

Carl, as for your specific questions regarding the school, I proffer the following:

(1) If a member has received notification that he's been accepted into the PDS, then suffers a mechanical failure, how do we decide whether or not to permit the use of a substitute vehicle?

I think it depends on when it occurs. If it is within a week (as someone already suggested) and another wait listed member can replace them, I say no substitution, refund and priority for next school.

(2) I believe that in the past the club has permitted the minor children of members to attend the PDS using their own cars rather than their parent's Porsche. Is this something we wish to continue or not? Expand to include a member's spouse?

No! Speaking as someone that recalls being a minor, if you had forced my dad to let me take this course in his Porsche rather than my ...err...non-P car, I would have thought you were a god. And if the hypothetical parent does not want to allow his child (or spouse) to drive his/her car, there are plenty of other schools to send the child. Here, I will save you the trouble of searching (www.bondurant.com).

Should our response to these situations depend on the marque of the substitute vehicle? It's performance capability?

Absolutely! Though the P-car/non-P car issue is mostly the point; the second issue is if we allow substitution, (please see all earlier objections) the substituted car should have a more than a reasonable level of performance. Lotus, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari? Yes, yup, uh huh, and hell yeah! Conversely, OldsmoBuick, Kia...oh do I really need to make a list?

After all, who wants to be the one that endangers an instructor by putting them in a student's car that is of questionable performance?

[ttweed]

Though the P-car/non-P car issue is mostly the point; the second issue is if we allow substitution, (please see all earlier objections) the substituted car should have a more than a reasonable level of performance. Lotus, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari? Yes, yup, uh huh, and hell yeah! Conversely, OldsmoBuick, Kia...oh do I really need to make a list?

I'll second this. If Carl wants input from the instructors, I can say FOR SURE that if I had been saddled with a teenager in a Toyota Corolla as my student for the day, I would have been pretty useless and bummed-out. Whoever took that on as your assignment, I salute you! You have more patience and a broader knowledge of performance driving in a non-performance car than I do! Thank you! Thank you!

TT

[kary]

Though the P-car/non-P car issue is mostly the point; the second issue is if we allow substitution, (please see all earlier objections) the substituted car should have a more than a reasonable level of performance. Lotus, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari? Yes, yup, uh huh, and hell yeah! Conversely, OldsmoBuick, Kia...oh do I really need to make a list?

I'll second this. If Carl wants input from the instructors, I can say FOR SURE that if I had been saddled with a teenager in a Toyota Corolla as my student for the day, I would have been pretty useless and bummed-out. Whoever took that on as your assignment, I salute you! You have more patience and a broader knowledge of performance driving in a non-performance car than I do! Thank you! Thank you!

TT

Yes, I agree. I have experience with P-cars and not with other cars. So I would not want to volunteer to teach if they are not bringing a P-car. I cannot add any value like I did with my student this weekend, who happen to have a '97 993 like mine.....well kind of like mine, but you get the point. Our value add is our knowledge about these cars and specifically about our knowledge of certain cars. Ask my student, she learned things about her car that had nothing to do with performance driving because I knew the car inside and out including its anomolies.

We are doing the student a terrible wrong by letting them think we can teach them in a car that we do not even understand. Heck, I have seen our instructors unable to teach in some of these Porsche's as well because they do not understand how to pitch them for instance. PLease do not allow non-P-cars int he performance driving school except the most extreme cases outlined in this thread.

[Greg Phillips]

As someone who was teaching in a Mustang and then driving my Hoda S2000, I did not find it a problem that there were other types of cars at the school. Ryan Mistak learned a lot about his Mustang that will hopefully make him a better driver on the street, and possibly in a 914 (or Boxster) if he decides to come to an autocross later.

I think the instructors are selling themelves short if they think they only have Porsche model specific knowledge to impart to students. Although it is ideal to be able to match a 944 with a 944 instructor, I think most intructors can do a great job of teaching the basic to these beginning students. It might be a little different at Willow Springs where the model specific knowledge is more important, but the school environment is not at that level.

Granted driving a Corolla is not as much fun as a 996TT, but teaching can still be done.

Greg

[ttweed]

I think the instructors are selling themelves short if they think they only have Porsche model specific knowledge to impart to students. Although it is ideal to be able to match a 944 with a 944 instructor, I think most intructors can do a great job of teaching the basic to these beginning students.

Of course you are right about this, Greg, some sort of basic instruction could still be accomplished, but the "value-added" factor of model-specific knowledge will be completely missing. I know I answered a lot of questions my student had about her early 911 on Sunday that had little or nothing to do with performance driving. That is the advantage a marque-specific school has over others, I think, and we should maximize that value. I would refer a teenager with a Corolla or a Mustang to the
Evolution schools, perhaps, specifically the Teen driving instruction, rather than the PDS. They are much more likely to encounter an instructor there who actually has some experience in FWD econoboxes or muscle cars!

Granted driving a Corolla is not as much fun as a 996TT

Amen! The "fun" factor cannot be ignored in retaining instructors as well. I remember being quite discouraged by the decision a few years ago that instructors would not be allowed to drive their own cars at the school at all, in order to put the focus purely on the students. Luckily, that policy did not last long, at least from my point of view. It is a good thing for the CDIs to be asking for input, and for the members to be discussing the issues. Keep it up!

TT

[markvaden]

After reading some of the posts in this topic about p-cars and auto crosses, I was wondering about the X class in autox. Can I run a non porsche car in X class at a PCA SDR region autox? Recently I had sold my 911 and was waiting for my cayman, and the only porsche I had was my wife's cayenne - could I have ran another car in autox's under the X class?

Thanks,
Mark

[Dan Chambers]

It is a good thing for the CDIs to be asking for input, and for the members to be discussing the issues. Keep it up!

TT

It's also important for everyone to understand that we're continuing to receive all feedback from students, instructors, Board members, former CDI's by way of email, phone calls, and this forum.

I think I can speak for Los Tres Amigos de CDI when I say that we're happy the first school we managed went well ...... not perfect, but well...... and we're planning on sitting down with all the info pooring in from the many different sources and reviewing all of it for its value.

All this info is good data, and there's no such thing as too much data, so keep up the good dialogue. It's all good, and helps us "newly appointed" to plan for the future. Feel free to write us in response directly from Carl's post-school email and elaborate on areas where we might have excelled (so we can repeat it if possible), and areas where improvement might be had (if and where implementation of new ideas can work within the time and physical limitations of the weekend).

Thanks all!

[kary]

Here are a couple of points I would like to provide the CDI team who I think did a good job for their first solo event.

1. I do not believe it is necessary to drive the students car in order to teach them. I am sure there are many that would disagree but I have never found it necessary to do this if you talk with the student prior to getting in the car and after they get of the car.

2. I believe it would be more useful if there was an instructor session earlier in the day following the first round of student driving on Sunday. This would provide the student with a view of how instructors drive their own cars more at the limit to aid the student in learning how straight a line can be created in such a curved track as an auto-x. BTW, I have viewed my G2X data and the data is interesting. I would like to discuss with the chairs how such a device might be used in the school to aid in teaching on Saturday and on Sunday.

3. My student, and others students (3) that I talked with did not feel comfortable having the instructor drive their car though they felt pressured to do this. In one such case a chair told me in front of my student that I should drive the student car for a few laps and tech them in that fashion. I looked at my students face and immediately knew this was not ok. We need to be more sensitive about this I feel.

4. We should use the same track as before since insructors know this track well and can easiliy teach from it. Also, an idea related to this is the use of the data acquisition system to lay out the track. I would like to discuss some ideas around this including the other auto-x's.

5. The breaks between sessions for the students on Sunday were far too long. There was little to do during the down times and we should really consider making use of the lunch time period in some way. Track time is limited at all venues regardless of type of event. Let's make use of that time.

6. I believe 30 minutes for the instructors to drive, even though they are still teaching with students, it too little a reward for the time put in. Using some more sessions as mentioned above interlaced with the student sessions would benefit everyone.


Just some thoughts to make the events better.

I would like to discuss with the chairs the use of data acquisition in these events as I believe it shows some very interesting comparisons for students against instructors and also shows them their driving line that we talk so much about, however the student cannot really see.

[Greg Phillips]

[quote="harnishclan"]Haven't seen this great of a dialogue since the Porsche Warranty voids for competitive events thread! How about defining parameters (i.e. policy) for participation.
1. Must be a P-car
2. If said P-car breaks more than 7 days before event, then you don't attend that PDS. But get priority for next event.
3. If said P-car breaks during the event, then alternates, provided they are both safe and able to perform at/near/above P-car standards okay (an event chair discretion).
quote]

OK, am I the only one to note the irony of the purist attitude from the Cayenne driver Or just the only one silly enough to call it out?
Does the Cayenne pitch and catch? Anyone able to spin it on the skidpad? Would it beat the Mustang through the autocross?
Although the Cayenne is a Porsche, I think the Lotus would be the better car for performance driving (on the road).
Does the Cayenne meet P-car standards? Well yes in the new millenium paradigm, but you would have been laughed at for bringing a SUV to the PDS before the Cayenne.

Greg