Buttonwillow TT June 3-4

[gulf911]

Gotta go but just wanted to say you ever heard of Le Mans Dan? 917's on the track with 911's, in the rain? Yeah, extreme comparison. Dan, the slower cars(less hp) is what white and yellow groups are for. You talk about SOW, you were in RED group Dan, and while you may catch 'some' car in the corners, trust me, I had to slow way down in the straights AND corners for you, otherwise I would have punted you into the weeds. This is not a knock on you at all, your car didn't belong in red. I don't mind you being there at all, but don't complain about being passed while in red. I am on the track with Bill Dawson, Mr. Schmidt, Steve G. and a host of others in Red and get passed all the time, but I am not calling for a special group. A Time Trial is supposed to be a stepping stone up from AX, gets you on the track with other cars 'faster and slower'. We have Yellow and White for guys just starting out to try a TT in a slower car.
I did like the 2 run group sessions, however, I am not sure this would work with a large turnout. 4 is too many for 40-50 cars IMHO.

[Brad Roberts]

Two words: Vintage Racing.

It has grown by leaps and bounds. It grows for some of the same reasons Dan speaks of above. Low HP cars hitting the brakes in a corner because of the "faster/more HP" car in front of them being slower.

Show up to a HSR West event some time and watch their 2.0 challenge class and ask yourself: "why dont these Porsche owners attend PCA events"?

I'm driving the "newer" Low HP car. I beleive in learning how to drive in a low hp car. It is easy to add HP, it is very difficult to add driver.

Dan,

Now that I'm staying in SD, I would like to get more involved (go ahead with instruction) Lets chat.

B

[Mike]

I see your point Dan C.
It's not easy on my ego to be passed often.

You are a very good instructor,,,,
Have you requested to run in a slower group?

For now you can choose to instruct and run in a faster group or enter your car in the slower group and instruct another day.

Yes the slower group can be a challenge with faster cars pulling you on the straight and parking it in the corners. That sir is the classic Porsche vs other car battle. Overcoming that challenge is just part of tracking a Porsche. In my experience the Porsches owns the corners but sometimes gives up the straight line speed.

[kary]

I strongly agree that either 2 or 4 run groups is much better than 3. With a student or sharing a car, the 3 groups just doesn't work. Plus, with the 2 group system, I was able to instruct 2 people during the same run session at times. I would go with one person for the first 10-15 minutes, then another for the next 10-15 minutes. Worked great and still would have allowed time for me to do a 20 minute session after taking a 10 minute break every hour.

Kary, I know you weren't at streets to see how this worked, but I found it much better. It also allowed enough time to go out and do 10 minutes, come in and adjust things for 10 minutes, then squeeze in another 10 minutes per run session.

Jad, you are correct, I was not there. I prefer to run longer sessions rather than more sessions in a day. Heat cycling tires and getting a rythm to driving is important rather than more sessions in driving. We get plenty of total time on the track and coming in every 15 minutes just becomes a nuisance more than anything else.

I also believe in mixing cars and horsepower as it makes for better drivers. I often get stuck behind other cars and with time trial rules cannot pass until an appropriate time, but then that is what circuit driving is all about, setting up a pass and timing the corners right. As Greg outlined in the Witness in his article about the time trial, it was all about passing and setting up a flying lap, but possibly people missed that aspect of the article.

As far as more or less groups, it is important to have time to work on the car, take a break, and also to analyze data. I know many do not have that aspect in their driving (data or working on their cars), but nonetheless it is important. Even without data acquisition discussing overall lap times with your competitors and driving lines should happen quickly after a session not that night at dinner. Adding instruction to this mix just leaves no time to do anything, which is why I instruct less and less these days. The 15 minute thing sounds interesting but is not appealing to me nor some others I know that drive with us.

Also, let's not try and be everything to everyone. Vintage, Street, Racers, etc....It will ruin what we have. If you want vintage then go to a vintage venue, if you want to race, then go to a racig venue. It is that simple.

[kary]

Gotta go but just wanted to say you ever heard of Le Mans Dan? 917's on the track with 911's, in the rain? Yeah, extreme comparison. Dan, the slower cars(less hp) is what white and yellow groups are for. You talk about SOW, you were in RED group Dan, and while you may catch 'some' car in the corners, trust me, I had to slow way down in the straights AND corners for you, otherwise I would have punted you into the weeds. This is not a knock on you at all, your car didn't belong in red. I don't mind you being there at all, but don't complain about being passed while in red. I am on the track with Bill Dawson, Mr. Schmidt, Steve G. and a host of others in Red and get passed all the time, but I am not calling for a special group. A Time Trial is supposed to be a stepping stone up from AX, gets you on the track with other cars 'faster and slower'. We have Yellow and White for guys just starting out to try a TT in a slower car.
I did like the 2 run group sessions, however, I am not sure this would work with a large turnout. 4 is too many for 40-50 cars IMHO.

Well said, I just chose not to respond because it made no sense

[Jad]

Kary,

You clearly do not understand how well Jack and Robert set up the 2 group system. Each session is 30 minutes which should be plenty long for you. However, those of us who do not want to be out that long, can do the first 15 minutes of the session, the second 15 minutes or any combination of time within the 30 minutes. This reduced congestion on the track and made the schedule very easy as you either went out from the top of the hour to half past or the other way. No PA system needed for run sessions.

If you are not instructing, then this is completely better for you. You have 30 minutes per hour of available track time versus 20 minutes with the 3 group method and since most cars are not out the entire time (maybe half the time?), there is even slightly less traffic and if there are 1 or 2 cars you don't want to be on the track with, they can also be avoided.

[pdy]

...And I am in favor of the three-group event. Why?

A. With two drivers, my poor car gets some rest,
which wouldn't happen with just two groups.

B. With a student I usually cut my session short
to accomodate the switchover, and with two groups,
we'd both cut short the sessions. Maybe we'd each
not lose any actual track time, but I dearly need
that 15-20 minutes to sit, rest, change tires, take
a you-know-what (student's fault), etc.

C. The third group allows flexibility - Students
and 'vintage' cars usually populate the third group,
and as the students with faster cars get better,
the groups can be adjusted. This leaves that third
group with a predominantly 'vintage' flavor by
Saturday afternoon.

Depending on track length and number of entries,
different group numbers will seem to work better.
I wasn't at SOW, but with only one driver the car
survived okay. I could see how being an instructor
would have made it a lot busier.

Reality, I can always do shorter sessions myself,
or skip one to change tires, etc.

And there ALWAYS will be passing - that's the nature
of Time Trials. But with widely varying car and
driver capabilities, Safety dictates that we not
try to run with too few groups, just to try and get
more track time.

my 3¢

Paul.

[Jad]

Paul,

I actually disagree with you for the exact reasons you cited as A & B, though your C reason of a group for slow cars-new students is valid to support the 3 groups. With 2 30 minute sessions, you COULD do it just like with 3, one person drives 20 minutes, take a 20 minute break, then the other drives 20 minutes, repeat. But to save my car now that my dad also drives it, is seems much easier on the car for one person to drive 15-20 minutes, take a 10-15 minute break, then the other person does the same. That way the car rests between every session. With 3, the car effectively runs 40 minutes straight, then gets a 20 minute break which seems much harder on the car.

The 2 groups just seems to allow the individual to decide when to go out instead of the clock with a slight increase in track time do to fewer groups changes making the track cold.

[pdy]

True - two groups allows us to even out the pauses,
keeping track time essentially the same. Point C
and the safety considerations are still valid. Jack
and his team have always taken safety and traffic
into consideration. I sense that if the atendence
at BWRP is significant, it will warrant three groups.
Also, the speed/lapping disparity is usually more
there than at Streets.

[gulf911]

Well said, I just chose not to respond because it made no sense

Geez, I would have to agree....thats what I get for trying to post in a hurry responding to one of Dans diatribes on why he hates getting passed by 'lesser' drivers on the straights...

Dan C Says:
"The low HP and vehicle capabilities concern is, in fact, legitimate (If it wasn't, why are so many early 911 drivers poking 3.2L engines in their tubs? "

You think they put 3.2's in because they get passed on the straights?

I used to own a stock 73E, a whopping 165hp. Drove it for almost 6 years AX,DE &TT, got passed in white group and orange group. Then I drove a good freind of mine's car, actually a Kinnenger built car, and I was hooked. It wasn't the same game. I had to learn all over again. And IMHO is much harder to drive fast, and much easier to screw up. My point? 5 years later I am still getting passed...

Dan C:
"I don't care how talented a driver you are. If you are driving a 1969 912 with 101 HP in a class with a 1986 944 Turbo, or a 1983 Carrera with +100 HP, you will eventually get passed. Most likely again and again and again. ( This is why you haven't seen Monica - and probably others in low HP cars - at the big tracks)"

Geez Dan, I certainly hope people aren't showing up because they'll get passed on the straights.

[Jad]

I agree, I just think 4 groups would be the next best step, not 3. To me, the 3 just doesn't work if you have a two driver car or if you instruct, as either you or your student suffer.

I am sure Jack and Robert will figure something out, but I was just trying to give feedback from my point of view or too many people will choose, like Kary, not to instruct as it is too hard to fit in. I know the last few events it has been a problem already.

[Curt]

Dan C..... I had trouble in red trying to pedal around a car only putting 186hp to the wheels. I can't imagine running a 500lb heavier car with 50 less hp in the red group.

[Dan Chambers]

Geez Dan, I certainly hope people aren't showing up because they'll get passed on the straights.

Actually, it's exactly why Monica doesn't drive Big Tracks. Because of her skill level, she's not often in the "Beginner/Novice" groups, so, she's continually passed by others.

There have been days when she has said to me that not getting a clean lap (because she's in with 993's 996's, Carrera's, even putt-putt 944's ...) the day wasn't as fun as A-X's; where she has a gauge of how she's doing. That's at a Q-DE. Imagine her going to a big track. Running down the straight at 75 to 85 MPH (her car max'es out around 90 to 98 MPH, realistically) and having someone come up behind her doing triple-digits would boht frustrate, and infuriate her. That is why you'll most likely never see her blue 912 at Willow, Buttonwillow, Cal Speedway. It just won't happen with the current TT program.

Imagine: her car actually makes my 944 feel fast.

Maybe Kary's right: Monica and I should (and can) go drive other venues where lower HP is okay. At least we'll feel a little more welcome there. .

As to the comment by Mike: I think you've got the best idea for me: I'll pass on Instruction and run in the Yellow group. I might actually catch someone there, and get out of the "real Porsche's" way!

Paul Y. and Kary: not being at SOW to see the 2X4 type run groups it's hard to tell how well it worked: but it worked very well. Sorry you missed it. I think an even number of run groups works best, but that's just me.

Hope to see you all at Spring Mtn. (Jack: put me in yellow run group )

[Dan Chambers]

Dan C..... I had trouble in red trying to pedal around a car only putting 186hp to the wheels. I can't imagine running a 500lb heavier car with 50 less hp in the red group.

What? Sympathy and understanding from Curt? Are you okay, man? Quick! Someone call 9-1-1. Curt's delirious!! Someone get a 911 over here: Curt needs more air!

[Mike]

As to the comment by Mike: I think you've got the best idea for me:

Hey Dan it's a fun way to go.
During the red group you could jump in some Top Ten cars for a different perspective.
I'll be back soon and would enjoy having you ride shotgun while we discuss the finer points.
With your assistance maybe I can keep ahead of Roland and the Killer Bee.
The ultimate would be if you were in the car while we held them off.