TRASH TALK

[Irksome]

It was, and I believe it is in the rules. I believe it is 6 autocross events, and the PDS counts as 2.

[4est]

While we're at it...

When I first joined the club and started AXing, I felt excluded from the "serious driver" group who had little time or inclination to talk to a newby like me. The term 'elitist' comes to mind...

I would get to the Q early (as is my nature) and wondered around looking for something to do (also my nature). I noticed this one guy, the 'equipment guy' as it turned out, busting his butt to get almost everything ready. Unloading the trailer, getting the cones out and tables set up, the air compressor, the timing system, the PA system, etc., etc. He worked mostly by himself, and had to directly and specifically ask someone for help when needed. I pitched in to help this guy immediately, because I respected his work ethic and recognized the need. It was fine; I learned about most of the systems, even enough to fill in for the 'equipment guy' when he wasn't present.

Here's the rub: When it came time to dismantle and re-pack the trailer, by and large nobody helped. There are certainly a small percentage who did and does (you know who you are), but for the most part the masses were content to stand around drinking their beverage of choice while waiting for the awards ceremony. I can't count the number of times I had to almost yell at the group of people standing near the back of the trailer sorting through the time postings to get out of the way. You'd think that one would notice a guy carrying 70 lbs of gear trying to get it back into the trailer. This happened every time, and got old real quick!

I don't AX anymore, mostly because I graduated to the big track and my car isn't set-up for success at AX anymore. But, the lazy nature of the majority of the AXers was a significant factor. Myself, I can't do nothing, and I won't do everything. It seemed like people think that the entry fee pays for this service.

My point: I only had a few instructors, and they were fantastic, motivated people. The loved talking about the cars, talking about driving and didn't seem like the kind of people who would belly ache about a small responsibility like corner working. There are certainly people with significant responsibilities that I would vote to give concessions to. I would even pay $5 or $10 dollars more to offset the cost of hooking these people up. God knows they earn it every month.

Instructors would be so far down that list that it isn't even funny...

[Kim Crosser]

We already excuse any instructor who spends a session out with their student, but many of us work all day, teach, and still do a corner working session - it really isn't that bad, and it should be a learning experience.

Huh?? Since when do we excuse corner working for instructors that spend a session with their student?? I must have missed those events??..

Also, I don't know where you are corner working but you are not out there for 1 hr. its much closer to 2.

The vast majority does not like to corner work for many reasons, not one of those reasons include not wanting to help, or not wanting to volunteer. I have no problem helping setup and or tear down, loading the truck etc. I also enjoy instructing , but when asked what kind of incentives would help in getting more instructors to volunteer , and that small incentive doesn't cost the club a penny , its a win win in my book.

And I do believe Jackie asked the question and I gave an obvious answer, but don't ask me to stop asking because you don't like the answer.

We have ALWAYS attempted to excuse instructors who worked a session with their students. Very rarely, due to a (common) shortage of workers, we have asked someone to work two shifts, but this is an exceptionally rare occurrence. You still need to check in with us, but just tell us that you worked a session with your student (we don't always remember everybody, and we only check off the worker names) and you immediately go to the end of the candidate list.

I am not sure who said one hour - not I - however, the usual time out there is about 1 hour 10 minutes to 1 hour 20 minutes (6 corner working sessions, vs about 7/8 hours total time from 9am to 4pm/5pm = 1.16 to 1.33 hours).

My "puhleeze" comment is due to the following set of factors:

1. We did lots of surveying, analysis, etc. about using paid corner workers - turned out not feasible, and/or not enough people willing to pay a lot more for workers, and/or to lose driving time (for paid worker lunches, etc.). (See MANY long and exhaustive threads elsewhere on the whys and wherefores - search "paid corner workers".)

2. Especially in the West Lot, we usually need at least 10 corner workers per session (plus gate and start/finish = 12 people minimum). That means we need at least 72 corner workers to run an event. If we only have 90 people (as with many of the recent events), that is only 3 "extra" persons per run group (18/6). Some people are instructors who already worked a session, some have physical ailments that prevent corner working (so they work gate or s/f), and a LOT of people help with track setup, tech, AX operations all day, etc.
(When we have tried to shrink to 9 or 8 corners, we have wound up having to double-staff the ones that are covering too large an area, so fewer than 10 people out on the West lot courses doesn't seem to work.)

Unless some of the instructors want to bring their serfs to do their corner working for them, we just don't have enough people to be feasible to "excuse" instructors from corner working.

If we were willing to run all our events in the SE lot, with no more than 5-6 corners, then we could "excuse" many more people. As it is, we are frequently having to call for volunteers to fill in - especially in the Red and White run groups, where many of the instructors run.

That is why I asked that we "puhleeze" not go back down this path.

Ok - diatribe over - resume normal posting...


p.s. Unless I note otherwise, the opinions in my posts reflect my personal views, and are not intended to be an official PCA-SDR position.

[ttweed]

Huh?? Since when do we excuse corner working for instructors that spend a session with their student?? I must have missed those events??..

Dan-
Kim means "spends a session out corner-working with their student." If the student is so new to autox that they need instruction in how to work corners, then the instructor is expected to accompany them when their run group is called to work, and is usually not required to work a second session when their own group is called to work.

TT

[gulf911]

While we're at it...

When I first joined the club and started AXing, I felt excluded from the "serious driver" group who had little time or inclination to talk to a newby like me. The term 'elitist' comes to mind...

Elitist??? WE DRIVE AROUND CONES IN A PARKING LOT!

When did you start ax'ing at SDR? I have been since 1998-99, and have really only met one individual with that kind of attitude. Even the most seasoned drivers I have met are always helpful with anyone new or otherwise, well, except for Jad... ( you know I'm kidding Capt.)

But, the lazy nature of the majority of the AXers was a significant factor.

Elitists aren't lazy...there just above doing those things...

I agree with one point , if compensation is paid it should be to those that run the event, not to instructors. Hence my suggestion.

Finally, nobody's "belly aching" here , Jackie asked the question and I responded with a suggestion and why it made sense. If you don't agree with it so be it, but disagree without calling ax'ers elitist and lazy...

[Curt]

I stopped instructing the second I watched Burl East in the instructor/passenger seat of a very fast students car go head on into a cement support for the overhead train. As we sprinted towards the car with fire extinguishers (those things get heavy pretty quickly) and I saw the cracked windshield on the passenger side, that was all it took.

Incentive to instruct? Maybe if my wife decides to make an autocrossing come back. Literally the last two times she autocrossed, we found out within a week or two of the event she was pregnant. I'm not sure what's going on there, but I suspect something in the tech inspection process. Those guys and there work gloves aren't fooling anyone. And two kids is enough.

Make Dan A corner-work. It's the only exercise that guy ever gets. How's that Dan? Do I have your back, or what?

[Irksome]

It's funny, I still pretty new to this a/x stuff, and maybe my opinion will change over time, but corner working is really one of the best parts of the day. I learn more about the course from corner working than I do hanging in the pits and flapping my jaws.

Sure, it gets old standing around for 1.5 hours, and in the summer is brutally hot, and last time it was annoyingly wet. Yeah, it can be a workout if you get a busy corner with cones getting clobbered all the time. But I still show up early every time to be sure I get the corner where I struggled the most during my first practice run!

[Curt]

It's funny, I still pretty new to this a/x stuff, and maybe my opinion will change over time,

Maybe?

[Curt]

corner working is really one of the best parts of the day.

I haven't autocrossed in a few years, but it sounds like things have really changed lately.

Hey, I'm not picking on you at all, just joking around.

[Jackie C]

IMHO, this isn't really about corner working, although we've discussed this topic to death over the past couple of years. I agree, Dan was just giving his opinion to my question. Forrest, I think you intimidated a lot of people with your fast car and good learning curve at first, but I'll never forget how you were there to help me the day I crashed on the freeway. Here's Forrest on his way to his 1st AX in the rain and he pulls over to help a Porsche he doesn't even know. You are my hero. Curt, bummer about your wife, but thanks for the heads up. I'm getting pre-teched from here on in (no pun intended)! I appreciate all who are responding. My point was, how do we keep the good instructors we have while infusing the club with new instructors? In my view, a lot of the good instructors instruct every single AX, help with the trailer and usually corner work. I hate to loose these good people and I see a trend so I thought I'd try to nip it if at all possible. Let's keep the thread alive until we get a solution to take to the Board.

[jenniferreinhardt]

My point was, how do we keep the good instructors we have while infusing the club with new instructors?

Great question Jackie!

As one of the Registrars I've heard frustration and seen fatigue from Instructors. The Parade and Chargers schedule resulted in a crowded driving event calendar for a good part of this year - this could have been part of the problem.

I think that if we can’t spread out our Qualcomm events more this year, we should opt for having fewer of them instead of bunching them together. This would lead to less burnout for everyone - not just Instructors.

This may be one of the solutions to keeping harmony. But, with all the great minds in the club can anyone come up with more?

[lrayner]

As the recently recruited co-corner working chair for 2008, I have to confess that this thread is giving me heartburn. In my more cynical moments I would tend to agree with Forests comments regarding people sitting around... but, there have always been doers and watchers/slackers. As one who has trouble sitting still I tend to be a doer, and find more in common with those in the club who are active, involved, doing stuff. And, because I'm still learning who everyone is, sometimes I learn that the guy who isn't pitching in at the AX has a pretty full plate doing something else for the club.

Are incentives neccesary? I don't think so. Maybe there will be a little burn out this month but more spread out scheduling next year should fix that.

And as for getting a bye from corner working, if there are extra people, I'll be giving a pass to the guy who was there helping me unload the trailer at 6a.m.

[Curt Yaws]

I'm going to vote with Jennifer here. We have had well over 12 events per year each year since I started driving with the club. With 12 AX's, several DE's and a lot of instructors attending TT's and other region events, it makes for a busy schedule. If the Qualcomm schedule doesn't allow us to hold an event each month, that's OK. I think we should skip a month and not hold two AX's in the following calendar month. Maybe a total of ten AX's would make a full season. That would reduce a bit of pressure on instructors. It might make everyone a bit more excited when they do show up, since they need their driving fix.

[Gary Burch]

The reason for the Q schedule is, 1. Dates are hard to get so you take what you can and 2. Rain-outs like the last ax. In this years case we canceled one in Sept. which gave us 2 back to back in Aug., dates that were taken because they were there.

My feeling is students with 4 ax's or less should get an instructor, those with more would get a ride along for a couple of laps, maybe from a pool of available instructors. And then, as an incentive, we give the instructors a night in Vegas at the end of the year.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Does my memory serve me correctly that we had the Parade Grudge Match, the next day an AX and then another one a few weeks after in July, (makes 3 that month), and then 2 AXs in August? The ones in August occurred on back-to-back weekends. As much as I like hanging out and driving with you guys, I certainly don’t want the latter to happen again. It was also quite time consuming to register 2 events back-to-back. I’m concerned about burnout. Let’s not take any Qualcomm dates just because they are there!! Let’s be smart and space them out hopefully 4, but at least 3 weeks apart, or just have less AXs if it means sanity for us. Don’t forget, the majority of the Instructors attend all points events because they want to win! (At least, that’s the look they have on their mugs!)

Someone still must have other fresh ideas other than scheduling to add, anyone?