PCA membership required for the AX on 2/10?

A place to hang out and discuss all things Porsche.

Postby ChuckS on Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:37 pm

The old rumors just won't die will they? :(

During my tenure as AX chair (2005-2006), I had been told by several people, including board members that AX participation required PCA membership due to insurance requirements. I could not find this in ANY written rule anywhere, so I worked with the PCASDR President (Margi Knight) to find out what the requirement really was. It turned out that there was NO insurance requirement for membership. There was no PCA National requirement for membership. There was NO Zone 8 requirement for membership.

It turns out, as stated previously in this thread, that when we were having AX attendance of over 120 - 160 and before we had implemented many of the procedures that now allow us to handle that kind of attendance, someone (most likely the then current AX Chair) decided to require PCA membership simply to limit attendance and reserve it for people who had paid their membership. THERE WAS NO OTHER REASON AT THE TIME. Someone most likely stated an insurance requirement to stop any arguments.

This issue was addressed with the 2006 BOD. The standing rules were amended to what Greg Phillips stated.

PCA members and Affiliates are regarded as the same. Non-members can participate, if driving a Porsche, with either the "sponsorship" of a member or the approval of an AX Chair. A Member can run a Non-Porsche only with the permission of an AX Chair. A Non-member and a non-Porsche would take an act of God, but might be possible.

As also stated earlier, the non-member cannot pre-register. This means that the cost is the late registration fee, which is currently $60, not the discounted pre-registration fee of $40. So, a PCA membership will get you the lower fee if you pre-register.

The issue of 16 and 17 year olds has indeed changed at the National level and is bizarre and I will leave that to a verbal explanation if anybody needs it.

As to why we still require the tech crew to check membership cards, I can only offer what was told to me by a BOD member when I asked the question. It was stated that many of our members end up with their membership lapsing due to "forgetting". Having the tech crew check, helps remedy this. This story is then followed by the story of the member who lost out on the opportunity to own one of the Club Coupes because he had let his membership lapse unknowingly.

I strongly suggest that anyone who thinks that this is an undue burden on our overworked tech crew or those participants who are annoyed at having to look up their membership number at every pre-registration because the PDF form will not allow it to be remembered or those who have to remember to find their card and bring it with them to every event or those who forget their card and have to go through aggravation because they did forget it - all to show something that is not even a requirement - bring your concern to board member or post it to this forum.

For those that think it still should be done, please post your thoughts here so we can hear the other side.


BTW, I may have got some minor technicality wrong in this, so for those who are into minutia, please forgive me. :cry:
Chuck Sharp
1988 911 Carrera 3.2 Targa C.E.
1988 944 Turbo S
1986 944 Spec
and Several X Cars
User avatar
ChuckS
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:03 pm
Location: Rancho Bernardo

Postby ttweed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:15 pm

ChuckS wrote:Non-members can participate, if driving a Porsche, with either the "sponsorship" of a member or the approval of an AX Chair.

This may qualify as minutia, Chuck, but I think it is an important distinction. Your statement above says "either/or", while the rule that Greg quoted says "Non-members may participate with the consent of the event chair" only. It does not say that sponsorship by a member allows a non-member to participate, without the consent of the chair.

TT
Tom Tweed -- #908
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-present
Windblown Witness Assistant Editor 2012-present
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Admin
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:54 pm

I think this thread illustrates an important problem with this clubs membership. You have an award winning website that you seemingly refuse to utilize.

There is virtually no answer about participation in this club that you can't find on this site. It only takes a few moments to find it.

Here is a sample question:
"So... I have a friend that wants to drive his 911 at the next AX, but he is not a member. What's the deal?"

Hmm let's try going to Driving Events...
Then to Important forms under the Prepare tab...
Then Region Standing Rules.
Here is the table of contents from the RSR.
Performance Driving Events ......... 8
Rules ............................................ 8
Refunds .........................................9
Policies ......................................... 9

There is the answer continued on page 10 under policies.

Non-members may participate with the consent of the event chair, but only in Porsches, which must be owned by either the participant or a sponsoring member.

As a member of the web team I am probably a little over sensitive to the fact that so much time is spent building a machine that doesn't get used. It's like building a wicked 400HP track car and entering it into a concours event...

So please before asking a question, or answering it with what you "think" is the answer... Ask the website.
Then post it for others to view who might have had the same question.

Here is the direct link to the RSR page
http://www.pcasdr.org/img/pdf/general/StandingRules.pdf
Give it a look, there is some pretty interesting stuff there... No Really!

Stepping down from my soap box now...
Steve Grosekemper #97
http://www.911SG.com
https://www.facebook.com/911steveg/
https://www.instagram.com/steve911sg/
PCA-SDR Tech Advisor/Scrutineer/Forum-Admin
1997 993S & 986S street cars & 911SC track car.
User avatar
Steve Grosekemper
Admin
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: San Diego

Postby ttweed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:49 pm

Steve Grosekemper wrote: Hmm let's try going to Driving Events...
Then to Important forms under the Prepare tab...
Then Region Standing Rules.
Actually, Steve, I looked for the Region Standing Rules on the website and I couldn't find them. Shouldn't they be linked from the "Rules" page, and not under "Important Forms"? That is neither a logical nor intuitive place for it, to my mind. "Region Governance" has more to do with Rules than it does with Forms.

Additionally, they are at the very bottom of that page, which requires scrolling down to find them, they are upstaged by waiver and liabilty forms, as well as eight copies of the various logos, for which the average member would never have any use, and no reference to them appears in the frames at the sides of the page or on the overall "Sitemap" anywhere. Without your posting a link, I never would have found them.

Honestly, I have never seen them before, and I have used this site extensively since it was created, and been on that forms page many times without seeing them. I don't think the current layout is as user-friendly and obvious as you do.

TT
Tom Tweed -- #908
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-present
Windblown Witness Assistant Editor 2012-present
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Admin
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

Postby ttweed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:42 pm

Steve Grosekemper wrote: There is virtually no answer about participation in this club that you can't find on this site.
OK, now that I have found and read the Region Standing Rules for the first time, I am curious about the reference within them to the "PCA’s Region Procedures Manual" Where does one find this document on the site?

Call me an internet-impaired moron, but I can't find it here. Does it refer to this document I found on the National PCA site?
https://www.pca.org/members/library/rpm/RPM%202007%20Complete.pdf

Thx,
TT
Tom Tweed -- #908
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-present
Windblown Witness Assistant Editor 2012-present
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Admin
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:27 pm

ttweed wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote: Hmm let's try going to Driving Events...
Then to Important forms under the Prepare tab...
Then Region Standing Rules.
Actually, Steve, I looked for the Region Standing Rules on the website and I couldn't find them. Shouldn't they be linked from the "Rules" page, and not under "Important Forms"? That is neither a logical nor intuitive place for it, to my mind. "Region Governance" has more to do with Rules than it does with Forms.

Tom, the rules page is for event rules... not rules for running the region. So while it doesn't seem intuitive to you wouldn't you consider it and important document?
Steve Grosekemper #97
http://www.911SG.com
https://www.facebook.com/911steveg/
https://www.instagram.com/steve911sg/
PCA-SDR Tech Advisor/Scrutineer/Forum-Admin
1997 993S & 986S street cars & 911SC track car.
User avatar
Steve Grosekemper
Admin
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: San Diego

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:42 pm

ttweed wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote: Hmm let's try going to Driving Events...
Then to Important forms under the Prepare tab...
Then Region Standing Rules.
Actually, Steve, I looked for the Region Standing Rules on the website and I couldn't find them. Shouldn't they be linked from the "Rules" page, and not under "Important Forms"? That is neither a logical nor intuitive place for it, to my mind. "Region Governance" has more to do with Rules than it does with Forms.

Additionally, they are at the very bottom of that page, which requires scrolling down to find them, they are upstaged by waiver and liability forms, as well as eight copies of the various logos, for which the average member would never have any use, and no reference to them appears in the frames at the sides of the page or on the overall "Sitemap" anywhere. Without your posting a link, I never would have found them.

Honestly, I have never seen them before, and I have used this site extensively since it was created, and been on that forms page many times without seeing them. I don't think the current layout is as user-friendly and obvious as you do.

TT


Tom, I didn't say everything was one click away... This site is huge.
But you did find it after looking, and in under 7 minutes between your postings. Looks like you proved my point. You looked for it and found it within a few minutes.

As for RPM's, Yes they are on the national site. The site that opened up after you hit the national link on the top of the home page on this site. You found that as well within the 7 minute window, because you tried to find it.

And thanks for pointing out the there is no link to the RPM's on that page... Something for my to-do list.

And lastly I wouldn't call you Internet impaired or a moron... I know where the world's best chocolate chip cookies come from. :wink:
Steve Grosekemper #97
http://www.911SG.com
https://www.facebook.com/911steveg/
https://www.instagram.com/steve911sg/
PCA-SDR Tech Advisor/Scrutineer/Forum-Admin
1997 993S & 986S street cars & 911SC track car.
User avatar
Steve Grosekemper
Admin
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: San Diego

Postby ttweed on Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:38 am

Steve Grosekemper wrote:Tom, the rules page is for event rules... not rules for running the region. So while it doesn't seem intuitive to you wouldn't you consider it and important document?
Yah, I think it is an important document, and I have heard it mentioned several times over the 10+ years I have been a member and never seen it before! I think it should be given higher exposure--perhaps even included in hard copy to new members when they join, for those who haven't adopted the internet as a communication tool fully, few as they may be these days. We also might consider giving it a little higher billing on the website rather than burying it at the bottom of the Forms page--I believe useability studies have shown that when searching for something, users will not always scroll down on a page to find it. By adding a link to it up higher on the visible portion of the page when it first comes up, it will be more "findable". I also think a link should be added to it on the Rules page, as someone searching for something named "Region Standing Rules" is bound to go there first, as I did. It was only when you mentioned that it was on the Forms page that I went back and found it. Without that hint, I was lost.
Tom Tweed -- #908
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-present
Windblown Witness Assistant Editor 2012-present
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Admin
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

Postby Steve Grosekemper on Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:15 am

ttweed wrote:
Steve Grosekemper wrote:Tom, the rules page is for event rules... not rules for running the region. So while it doesn't seem intuitive to you wouldn't you consider it and important document?
Yah, I think it is an important document, and I have heard it mentioned several times over the 10+ years I have been a member and never seen it before! I think it should be given higher exposure--perhaps even included in hard copy to new members when they join, for those who haven't adopted the internet as a communication tool fully, few as they may be these days. We also might consider giving it a little higher billing on the website rather than burying it at the bottom of the Forms page--I believe useability studies have shown that when searching for something, users will not always scroll down on a page to find it. By adding a link to it up higher on the visible portion of the page when it first comes up, it will be more "findable". I also think a link should be added to it on the Rules page, as someone searching for something named "Region Standing Rules" is bound to go there first, as I did. It was only when you mentioned that it was on the Forms page that I went back and found it. Without that hint, I was lost.


Those are all great suggestions Tom,
You are correct on the scrolling issue.
I will put in on my Feb web to-do list.

So gonna have any cookies at the AX (Hint, Hint :wink: )
Steve Grosekemper #97
http://www.911SG.com
https://www.facebook.com/911steveg/
https://www.instagram.com/steve911sg/
PCA-SDR Tech Advisor/Scrutineer/Forum-Admin
1997 993S & 986S street cars & 911SC track car.
User avatar
Steve Grosekemper
Admin
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: San Diego

Postby PShipman on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:13 am

ronaldtrotter wrote:I have always understood anyone running was a member or Affiliate member. If I have had a friend run he has been my Affiliate member. That can be arranged by contacting PCA National on their website. Our policy(since I have been part of the AX Team) has been member or Affiliate or you don't participate unless we are doing a joint event with another club.

This was my understanding that I got from Martha last year.
**********************************
Perry Shipman
944 S2 Cabriolet (white)
**********************************
User avatar
PShipman
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:56 am
Location: Santee, CA

Postby ronaldtrotter on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:21 am

Thanks Steve,

I finally found the By-Laws and Rules also. It is my understanding that Tom Brown met last year and we have changes to the By-Laws. I'm not sure if these changes are proposed or new. The ones on the site are 2002.

Ron
'82" 911 SC Targa
'86' Buick Grand National
'85' 944 Spec
2015 VW Sport Wagon TDI
ronaldtrotter
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:10 am
Location: Chula vista

Postby PShipman on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:25 am

ChuckS wrote:... so I worked with the PCASDR President (Margi Knight) to find out what the requirement really was. It turned out that there was NO insurance requirement for membership. There was no PCA National requirement for membership. There was NO Zone 8 requirement for membership.

So this does boil down to a AutoX chair "ruling" ... which seems, perhaps, a bit arbitrary (i.e. who are the chairs during any given year).

Perhaps at the board meeting Tuesday the board might want to set some permanent policy???? :burnout: (Personnally I have my own opinion ... but that is what makes it so arbitrary :-))
**********************************
Perry Shipman
944 S2 Cabriolet (white)
**********************************
User avatar
PShipman
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:56 am
Location: Santee, CA

Postby PShipman on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:26 am

ronaldtrotter wrote:Thanks Steve,

I finally found the By-Laws and Rules also. It is my understanding that Tom Brown met last year and we have changes to the By-Laws. I'm not sure if these changes are proposed or new. The ones on the site are 2002.

Ron

Soooo .... Mr. Trotter ... don't make us hold our breaths ... what are the new (or proposed) changes????
**********************************
Perry Shipman
944 S2 Cabriolet (white)
**********************************
User avatar
PShipman
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:56 am
Location: Santee, CA

Postby PShipman on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:23 am

Just got this from the Board Secretary, Ms. Reinhardt from the current, board approved Autocross FAQs:
Q3: Can anyone drive my Porsche in an AX event?
A3: Anyone who drives must be a member or an affiliate member. If you just signed up your spouse or other family member, then you can use the confirmation email from PCA as proof of membership which must be shown when you tech your car before the AX. Please refer to the response to Q1 for directions regarding how to sign up for an event.

So, one must be a member or affiliate member to drive in an AX.
**********************************
Perry Shipman
944 S2 Cabriolet (white)
**********************************
User avatar
PShipman
Time Trialer
 
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:56 am
Location: Santee, CA

Postby ttweed on Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:12 pm

PShipman wrote:So, one must be a member or affiliate member to drive in an AX.
That would be contrary to what it says in the Region Standing Rules, then, as discussed above. Is this a new development, and the RSRs have not been updated, or just more perpetuation of inaccurate previously held beliefs/rumor/policy interpretations?

Where is this "board approved Autocross FAQ" published?

TT
Tom Tweed -- #908
SDR Tech Inspection Chair 2005-06
SDR Forum Admin 2010-present
Windblown Witness Assistant Editor 2012-present
Driving Porsches since 1964
User avatar
ttweed
Admin
 
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:13 am
Location: La Jolla, CA

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 35 guests

cron