HOOSIERS?

[Dan Chambers]

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck-it's a duck.

I love you, man. You quack me up!

- IS Loser

[pdy]

True I have TRIED to optimize the '79 911SC for IS class, budgetting my 8 points thusly;

2 Points for Sway Bars
2 Points for Torsion Bars
4 Points for tire Compound (treadwear under 50)

And taking out options and stuff that contribute to weight, getting the car down to curb weight of an SC with no options.

While I won last Saturday, I think Dan will agree he was not up to his normal form. Look at earlier AX class IS results - I was driving these magnificient Hoosiers and I still got beat by
either or both Steve and Dan, who run non-Hoosiers. I still think Hoosiers are better, but you don't suppose there MIGHT be other factors that are important? Hmmm....

[Don Middleton]

Porsche supplied treadwear ratings as low as 140 on nearly all production cars over the years. We want to allow truly "Showroom Stock" cars in SS.

Paul, thanks clearing up the 140 treadwear limit for S/S. That was always a mystery to me. But, now that I understand it, I wonder why we give S/S any points at all.

Don't misunderstand. I'm all for the treadwear limits on classes. As you have explained, there is a rationale for it for S/S. There is also some similar rationale for Improved (and above) being allowed to use the non-DOT tires.

It sounds like we missing a rationale for 'S' and 'P'. To borrow from Gary, what is "spirit" of 'S' and 'P'???

[gulf911]

Arguing over semantics? If you are trying to tell me Hoosiers are not a race tire... It appears all of the POC /PCA/ VARA etc etc etc are racing door to door on non race tires...

No way should a 'race tire', and yes gentleman Hoosiers are race tires, (please give us a little credit), be allowed in stock classes. DOT from hoosier or Kumho means zip, its marketing and loophole BS....

[993Panzer]

In PCA club racing yoiu can run in GTxR or GTxS. The R class is for race tires, the S class is for street. In club racing Hoosier R6 tires are in the "street" class and not the "racing" class. I don't make the rules, I just run by them.

[ttweed]

I wonder why we give S/S any points at all.

One reason would be because a limited slip differential is 2 points, and a lot of showroom stock cars would be eliminated from the class by this one common option if 2 points were not allowed in S/S.

It sounds like we missing a rationale for 'S' and 'P'. To borrow from Gary, what is "spirit" of 'S' and 'P'???

The spirit of "S" and "P" classes is to allow minimal preparation of a car to go faster and compete at a higher level than S/S, and at a lower level than "I". What else do you need? It's what a lot of people want to do with their cars.

Tires are an important part of that preparation, and as Paul said, there are choices to be made and trade-offs to consider. That's part of the sport. I have no problem with allowing Hoosiers in any class beyond Street Stock. The disclaimer by Hoosier against street use for its DOT tires is simple "Cover Your A$$" language. Their race tires are slicks, and are in a whole different league in terms of grip, longevity and weight. The fact is that their DOT tires can be driven on the street and meet all the DOT standards--they just don't want you to come back and b!tch at them because they didn't hold up to a pothole! If you outlaw Hoosiers, what's next? The Kumho V710? Where does this stop?

In SCCA Solo racing, all the Stock classes are allowed to use any DOT tire, just like our rules. There are specific Street Tire classes which are limited to 140 treadwear, just like our S/S class, and there is just as much bickering and hand-wringing about the relativity of the 140 UTQG rating among manufacturers there. If you don't have 17-18" rims, you can't run the Advan Neova and are stuck with the Falken Azenis. Get over it! Just drive the thing faster.

You cannot make any fair rule change that would eliminate this anomaly, it is a fluid and ever-changing standard, with new tires coming out all the time in limited sizes by different manufacturers, as Paul mentioned. There cannot be a "Spec" tire for anything but a Spec car class, like 944Spec or Spec Miata, or a racing series with specific rim and tire size limitations. The differences in age and design of the cars in the full range of our Stock classes prohibit it. You cannot find a single tire that is made in all sizes to fit 14" rims in a 185 width for a 1970 911E clear up through 18-19" rims in a 315 to fit a Q-class 911 widebody. It ain't going to happen.

The only valid reason I can see for limiting tire choices in the Stock class is for cost savings, but that is a personal choice, and cannot be rule-driven. The fast tires are expensive and don't last very long, which penalizes the budget-challenged among us. But as they say, "what part of this racing thing did you think would be cheap and easy?" If limited on tires, the unlimited-budget people will spend the money developing other parts of the car anyway. Just look at engine development in Spec Miata!

It's all a tradeoff. If you choose to run a cheaper, longer lasting tire, then you can spend the points on other suspension/engine changes to equalize the speed potential. I don't have any problem with our rules just the way they are, and don't see how they could easily be changed to achieve whatever parity or "spirit" people think is missing. I really do not see how you can even extend this line of thinking to the Prepared classes at all. By the time you are spending 20 points on developing a car, 4-point tires are trivial to the equation.

That's my $.02,
TT

[gulf911]

Tom,
With all due respect, The Hoosier and the kumho are 'competition' tires by there own standards. Try to find it on tire rack under street tire. Arguments in both directions can be made but don't pee on my leg and tell its raining...

"It's all a tradeoff. If you choose to run a cheaper, longer lasting tire, then you can spend the points on other suspension/engine changes to equalize the speed potential."

There is no suspension within the points in that class that will compensate for a hoosier.

How can I get my car in IS?? Gary is such a troublemaker...

[Don Middleton]

I really do not see how you can even extend this line of thinking to the Prepared classes at all. By the time you are spending 20 points on developing a car, 4-point tires are trivial to the equation.

Tom, lot's of good points. Can't really argue with any of it EXCEPT your last statement. Why limit Prepared class to DOT tires? Like you said, they've got 20 points to play with and, in the case of non-DOT tires, it's only 6 points.

It seems that you either limit each class on tires, or take the approach that if you have the points, run whatever works within your class limits.

Why not let Stock cars run 6-point tires? Stiffer springs and 6-point tires and you are still in Stock class, right? Why not, when the other guy has stiffer springs and sway bars and 4-point tires in Stock.

And, if I'm in S/S, why not let me run 2-point tires when the other guy has an LSD from the factory, right?

Obviously, the rules reflect a philosophy. Rules should - that's what they are there for. so, if the philosophy is that S/S class should run tires like those cars coming out of the showroom, fine. If the philosophy is that Improved cars are at a point where they can start running non-DOT race tires, that's fine, too.

But, since we've devised rules that make a distinction between classes regarding tires, it seems like we should carry that to all classes. I think what Gary and others are saying is that we are missing that distinction between Stock and Prepared.

I guess my vote, to borrow from Gary, is to keep the "ducks" out of Stock and leave them to Prepared cars.

[MTrotter]

I typically don’t like to post. I’m more of a lurker and prefer it that way. But this has been a sore spot for me for quite some time. Tires have always been a thorn in my side. So, here I am, posting on an issue that will never be resolved............

As a driver is SCCA Solo events, PCA, BMWCCA and a recovered street racer... TIRES MAKE A TON OF DIFFERENCE!
So, if the rules state that you must use tread wear ratings of 140 or higher, then that’s what you must use. If you have 2 points to work with, then you figure out how to spend those points wisely. If you have to use a DOT tire, then you find the best possible DOT tire that fits your car. Even if it’s an A6 or V710. The rules say you can. .. So you can. and you should if you don’t mind spending the money. I would never drive these tires on the street because they operate best at temps above 120 degrees and will never see this on the hwy. So, it’s pretty unsafe to try it. Besides, with over 1500 dollars of rubber under me, I wouldn’t waste my money driving them on the street... EVER!
We can’t ask a company to make a tire that fits a car if they don’t have one. So, if you are limited to certain tires in stock or street stock class because of fitment problems... you have 3 options

1. run what you can, pick the best available and learn to drive the car better in the mean time. Later when a better tire comes out you will be way ahead of the curve.

2. Take some points and bump up to a higher class. There is something to be said for liking your car so much you want to improve/modify it.

3. Pick your cars more wisely. I find its better to choose a class you would like to race in, and then research the cars available. ie.. Find the one year that has LSD, or the year that had wider wheels or lighter total weight. Possibly find a stripper model with crank windows and no AC. Pick the car with the MO30 options package and no sunroof for godsake!

I believe that rules are rules. We all have to follow them in the same sense. Its a gentlemans (gentlewomans)sport and we are on the honor system for the most part.
I don’t believe in the "spirit" of the rule. I believe in what it says, in black and white. don’t read too much into it, and be willing to explain it to someone if its questionable.
If you don’t like the rules you can do your part in submitting for a change, good luck! ha ha.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
THAT IS ALL.

[gulf911]

Possibly find a stripper model with crank windows and no AC.

I had one once.....she left me...

[MTrotter]

Possibly find a stripper model with crank windows and no AC.

I had one once.....she left me...

They always do.

[ttweed]

It seems that you either limit each class on tires, or take the approach that if you have the points, run whatever works within your class limits.

Why not let Stock cars run 6-point tires?

I think what you are missing, Don, is that the type of tires allowed is also accompanied by increased safety requirements as the prep level increases. It would not be prudent to allow a Stock class car, with no safety enhancements, to run race tires. In Improved class, where thay are allowed, harnesses and roll bars are also required, which is logical if you are going to generate higher cornering speeds by using racing slicks.

And, if I'm in S/S, why not let me run 2-point tires when the other guy has an LSD from the factory, right?

Because there is no single improvement capable of decreasing your lap times more than sticky tires, as others have pointed out. Installing an LSD does not even compare, especially in a softly-sprung, lower-powered car. Having an equal penalty under our rules does not make them equal improvements.

TT

[gulf911]

Because there is no single improvement capable of decreasing your lap times more than sticky tires, as others have pointed out. TT

Geez Tom...I have been demoted to others?...where is the sulk smiley?? C'mon , the stripper thing gave you a smile didn't it??...

[ttweed]

With all due respect, The Hoosier and the kumho are 'competition' tires by there own standards....don't pee on my leg and tell its raining...

Dan-

It's raining! No, really, I am not saying that they are not a competition tire, but that their full race slicks are much faster. I just don't see any reason to ban DOT-R tires from the Stock class. If you want to run street tires, there is S/S class. I don't think we need another street tire class, personally. The first thing anyone wants to do once they learn how to drive their car is to put R-compound tires on it. What are we going to do, throw them all into Prepared for that?

I have not heard what the desired solution is on this thread yet. Are people looking for a ban on R-compound tires, or a <50 or less than <100 treadwear exclusion from Stock Class? Or just a ban on Hoosiers? I'd like to hear what rule proposal would solve this perceived problem. Heck, I'd like to understand more clearly what the problem is, exactly.

There is no suspension within the points in that class that will compensate for a hoosier.

Hmmm...maybe so, but with 8 points in stock class you could choose to go with lowering springs and/or big torsions w/ raised spindles, big adjustable ARBs, triple adjustable shocks and 2-point larger rims and a 0-point tire like the Advan Neova and come pretty close, depending on the driver and how well they can set up the car.

Regardless of that, if you know the Hoosiers are the biggest single improvement you can make, why would you leave them off your prep list? Because they are more expensive than a V710 or an RA1? I don't get it.

TT

[ttweed]

Geez Tom...I have been demoted to others?

I'm sorry, Dan, but you were just one of several in this case.

C'mon , the stripper thing gave you a smile didn't it??...

That was good! Yes, it made me smile. I didn't believe it for a minute, though! No self-respecting stripper would have gone home with you.

TT