Zone 7 Vs. Zone 8 test

[Greg Phillips]

O.K. I'M IN @ a/x13,I think.Pure stock 89 951.probably the only one!

You might want to check again, with 8" & 7" wheels (60) and limited slip (30) you have 320 + 90= 410 or AX12, although there may be some other points hiding in there

Greg

[Cajundaddy]

TT wrote: "I may be in the minority, but I don't see their rules as being any big improvement over what we have, just different. As I said before, if the beef is that we have too many classes and not enough competition in some, I would look at consolidating classes instead."

Roughly 12 "point" classes based on relative performance and a few "spec" classes makes a lot of sense and I believe would serve the majority of Zone 8 drivers better than our current 65+ classes with 0-2 cars in each. How we get there from here will require someone much brighter than me.

And... there will always be someone who does not like the rule change. Any rule change should focus on the needs of the "many" rather than the "few".

[gocart]

O.K. So what does this mean? I show up with AX5 on my car instead of FI? Both? Will our standings be calculated using both classings?

The last sentence says to me that I must also take points for everything that is different about my SC engine compared to a stock '65-68 911 2-liter. So in addition to the 150 points for displacement, I also have to take the 15 points for throttle body change and 10 points for induction system change (CIS injection vs. carbs), making a total of 175 points for the swap. Our Zone 8 rules distinguish between a "stock" engine swap and a custom engine build by calculating points based on HP alone, vs. calculating them on displacement change plus individual component changes.

Tom, I mentioned in a previous thread that I thought the older cars with mods were unduly penalized.

"I may be in the minority, but I don't see their rules as being any big improvement over what we have, just different. As I said before, if the beef is that we have too many classes and not enough competition in some, I would look at consolidating classes instead."

I don't think that adopting Z7's system will be very popular with a lot of folks.

I think a "hybrid" of both our Z8 rules and their on line system may be a better solution.

I don't think there is much argument about what mods are counted in our system, so why change it? Maybe we should have classes based on points. Perhaps everyone in IMPROVED competes against every one else in improved?

Obviously I'm over simplifying but maybe something to think about.

[Mmagus]

Thought I do like the Z 7 system, it can be manipulated like any system and does have its flaws to be sure. For instance Jerry B. mentioned that his total Stock 944 could be fitted with 50TW tires and still be in the AX13 class with my 924S with better sway bars and springs...which would most likely make him pretty hard, if not impossible, to beat.

I guess the appeal for me is the condensing of classes and running against other types of cars.

[Gary Burch]

I may be in the minority, but I don't see their rules as being any big improvement over what we have, just different. As I said before, if the beef is that we have too many classes and not enough competition in some, I would look at consolidating classes instead.

TT

I think the main advantage to the Z7 rules is the format. Nothing is stopping us from adapting a points based rules system and putting it into effect. It could be based on HP to weight, past AX, TT times, anything. Add in points for the Slippery Slope, and that's it. Some smart folks could probably do it in a week end, and then the rest of us could bitch about it on Monday.

[ttweed]

Some smart folks could probably do it in a week end, and then the rest of us could bitch about it on Monday.

REALITY CHECK--Tom Brown has been trying to put together a committee to come up with a total rewrite of the Zone 8 rules for quite awhile, with little success. A lot of people seem to be interested in the idea from the comments on this and the other thread, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of actually doing the grunt work required, there aren't many people willing to dedicate the time and effort involved, it seems, including myself.

TT

[rshon]

REALITY CHECK--Tom Brown has been trying to put together a committee to come up with a total rewrite of the Zone 8 rules for quite awhile, with little success. A lot of people seem to be interested in the idea from the comments on this and the other thread, but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of actually doing the grunt work required, there aren't many people willing to dedicate the time and effort involved, it seems, including myself.

TT

It's also like reassigning everybody's office in a building. If you do it fairly, EVERYONE WILL HATE YOU EQUALLY.

[Don Middleton]

Some smart folks could probably do it in a week end, and then the rest of us could bitch about it on Monday.

Have to agree with Gary. It wouldn't take a lot of time to make a big improvement in what we have.

REALITY CHECK--Tom Brown has been trying to put together a committee to come up with a total rewrite of the Zone 8 rules for quite awhile, with little success.

Must be some sort of covert organizing effort. I don't think it has been widely publicized. I have to believe there are members interested enough in making a change to invest the time.

If you do it fairly, EVERYONE WILL HATE YOU EQUALLY.

Yes, Russell. Putting a lot of time into it will not minimize the whining. So, just do something and make an improvement.

[ttweed]

Must be some sort of covert organizing effort. I don't think it has been widely publicized. I have to believe there are members interested enough in making a change to invest the time.

Yes, it may have been a bit of an "underground" movement. I think the recruiting effort was limited to those people who had participated in the rules-making process previously, or had shown an interest in it by participating in earlier rule change processes vigorously. In some ways, that makes sense, as it requires a thorough knowledge of the existing rules and their basis, philosophy, interrelationships, etc., as well as a knowledge of Zone 8 dynamics. With all the apparent interest in radical change that has been exhibited lately, maybe there are more suitable candidates for such work than Tom was aware of. I would suggest that anyone interested in volunteering for such an effort contact him. As I said, I declined the invitation, mostly because I am not a proponent of radical change to the rules, but evolutionary development.

TT

[gocart]

mostly because I am not a proponent of radical change to the rules, but evolutionary development.

+1
If the main complaint is too many classes, maybe the effort should be on consolidation rather than starting from scratch.
For example, why is F class different from H class? Are the old 911 Ts and Es at a disadvantage compared to the Ss and 2,7 cars from the mid 70s? I don't think so. Then there are the 924s and 944s which are in F, G and Spec.

[Aavitt]

STANDING UP FOR LADIES CLASS!
Like it or not the "L" class is currently a legitimate part of the Zone 8 rules. Ladies can and should be able to make the choice to add an" L" to their class. I STRONGLY disagree that men and women can compete equally in this sport. Upper body strength and endurance are a major factor especially if you drive a car without power steering. (as I did for 3 years) NOT TO Mention, but I will anyway, a size 13 racing foot that fits easily over the brake and the gas at the same time! Come on? What lady can compete with that? It takes a lot of leg strength to stop a GT3 flying down the straight at 130 mph. I am sorry it is just not a fair fight. Unless the club is willing to hand out Testosterone pills to all the ladies before an event, I think that the Ladies Class should stay an option. I tallied the last 3 years of AX and TT's 07, 08, 09. 21 Ladies competed in Ladies class. 15 trophies were given out in 3 years. ALL of them were WELL-DESERVED, no matter what Katina says. I prefer to compete with other Ladies in my class. It is not my fault that there are no other Ladies in my RSL class at this point in time. There have been others in the GT3 ladies class in the past, unfortunately they are no longer racing with the club. I have classed our GT3 in the Zone 7 system and it comes out AX3. That is up there and a very tough class. What is wrong with AX3L?

[Don Middleton]

If the main complaint is too many classes, maybe the effort should be on consolidation rather than starting from scratch...

Agree. There are too many cars running similar times from different classes. Take this step of consolidation and see if we really need to do anything more.

I STRONGLY disagree that men and women can compete equally in this sport. Upper body strength and endurance are a major factor...

Considering Angela' point, and in the interest of consolidating classes, I have to ask: Have we ever considered letting Ladies run with a class handicap? That is, let Ladies drop down a class or two (or three, whatever) with their cars, as opposed to having a separate class. The complexities of something like that are obvious, but the approach doesn't have to be perfect. The BRI doesn't even consider Ladies classes and yet we still use it and present the award each AX event.

[mrondeau]

Here's some



to go with that

[Aavitt]

Who me? Whinning? NEVER! Just stating the facts!

[Speedy]

Angela Avitt - STANDING UP FOR LADIES CLASS!
"Like it or not the "L" class is currently a legitimate part of the Zone 8 rules. Ladies can and should be able to make the choice to add an" L" to their class."

Angela you are right. its part of the rules. We are discussing a change to the rules...
At last night's board meeting there was a discussion of how the rules allow for the ladies to run in a separate class -
Yet no trophies are to be given without there being true competition.

The rule:
X AWARDS
A. Individual awards are encouraged at Zone Time Trials and Autocrosses. Such awards should include the event description and finish order. Where possible, they should be presented at the site, immediately after the event.
B. Award Depth
1. One trophy for classes with two or three cars entered.

Last night you mentioned that the trophy is important to you and perhaps some others as well... trophies have been given to women for a while now. If it's the trophy that matters and they actually followed rules and not give a trophy would you still want to run in a class that does not present a trophy or would you consider competing and give the entire class, man or woman, a run for it?

I shared with you my feelings about a ladies class. You are getting faster and you know it! Kick some butt girl.
Hardly any woman makes TTOD Angela!

Finally, I feel the only way to make it fair is if women wear 5 inch Stiletto heels while driving AND if men wanted to compete with the ladies they too could put on a pair of 5 inch Stiletto heels! (Now that's a trophy well deserved.)