DE /TT fees

[Gary Burch]

I don't know this for sure...but I would think that the simple answer is volume. They hope to have every leadfoot, speed addict, wannabe, yahoo out there that they can regardless of ability. Then toss them in with the great experienced drivers (such as yourself) based on car hp/design or the like and simply let them have at it. If they have a boatload of drivers, the cost per person goes down.

That sounds familiar, oh yeah, PCASDR reduced the driving requirements and the safety requirements so more people could drive DE's.

Just because it's cheaper than us doesn't mean it's a yahoo festival. Just because people don't drive Porsche's doesn't mean they are wannabe speed addicts.

So move ovder and let this leadfoot thru...

[Mmagus]

While I would never place you in the yahoo group Gary...I am with you on the leadfoot.

I do believe, that you understand my point, but perhaps not. Its simply this. Since our TT events are not a "y'all come, any car, any level of experience" we will not garner the amount of participants that such an event will. Thus they can charge a lower per person cost. We pay for that "exclusivity" (I dont mean thatin a snobbish way). Aditionally, with a total open door policy, if thats what they have, the "yahoo percentage" will raise. No disrespect is ment...to the event...yahoos...wannbes...or speed addicts. In fact they serve as a vital and needed resource...for youtube clips at least.

[kary]

While I would never place you in the yahoo group Gary...I am with you on the leadfoot.

I do believe, that you understand my point, but perhaps not. Its simply this. Since our TT events are not a "y'all come, any car, any level of experience" we will not garner the amount of participants that such an event will. Thus they can charge a lower per person cost. We pay for that "exclusivity" (I dont mean thatin a snobbish way). Aditionally, with a total open door policy, if thats what they have, the "yahoo percentage" will raise. No disrespect is ment...to the event...yahoos...wannbes...or speed addicts. In fact they serve as a vital and needed resource...for youtube clips at least.

You do not need to mix them with you, you put them in their own run groups, then your volume goes up and your costs go down and you keep your exclusivity as you said it. My previous post was long so perhaps the message was lost.............

[gulf911]

Kary Wrote:
"POC is more expensive then the PCA TT events"

Not for Streets of Willow. $175 for 1 day and $265 for 2 days which includes timing and the transponder is $20.

[kary]

I think you took my statement out of context because I was really talking about race groups not time trial groups. I was attempting to make suggestions that POC have done that have boosted participation. Making a negative statement instead of coming up with solutions is of no use. Which is partly why I don't drive with PCA any longer.....lots of negative and no positive soluitions or change. Check out POC forums if you are a member and see the GT discussions for classes, for promotion of new members.....positive....if anyone is griping about $100 then you should not be racing, period.

[AGill]

FWIW, I am one of those people on the fence about this event (and really, all other PCA DE/TT events if the cost is the same) and it all comes down to cost/other options available. I did a couple PCA DE's last year and pretty much all the AX's. This year I am looking forward to doing as many DE's/TT's as I can, scheduling/$$$ permitting. However, at $385 for this first event and $375 at other events (no log book for later events) I have to pause.

One solution, since there really is nobody running in my class for TT's, is to just run the DE...however, I would like to get timed as a reference but I am not going to pay $55 more for a transponder and timing fee to do so. This option to just allow us to run a DE format is a good idea so good job on adding that feature. Doing this brings the cost down to $330 (am I right in assuming I don't need a transponder for DE only???) which is at the high end of doable for me but I will only do a couple events at this cost.

A second solution is to run with POC, which through my research is significantly cheaper for an equivilent TT event. The rub...I really like the PCA "family" and would not even question doing their events if things were more similar in cost...we're talking around $100 difference. To comment on what Kary said (who I think has some helpful suggestions and nice taste in cars ), I know racing is expensive and $100 is nothing in the grand scheme of things but I don't think that is the issue here...it's more a question of why would I choose to pay $100 more for virtually the same thing I can get elsewhere.

My point...if the cost of a PCA event was closer when compared to an equivilent POC event I would have already signed up. I would very much like to run with PCA and the DE/TT program could have my $$$ added to at least 3-4 events if the difference in cost was not so high. If POC can do it better (cheaper), then lets look closely at how they achieve that result.

I realize I am just one voice but my hope is that if there are a few more like me that raise their hand it might help allow the DE/TT chairs to make some adjustments and convince me and others to sign up. Nevertheless, thank you to those that work so hard to even make these events an option.

Lastly, to comment on something already mentioned, if costs would be significanlty reduced by doing joint club events (PCA/BMWCCA) I think this is worth looking into and I've all for it. In the midwest (Kansas City), where I moved from a couple years ago there is no such thing as a single car club track day. Each major club "hosts" an event or two each year at the local DE track and all the other clubs are invited. Everyone plays nicely and it really is a matter of necessity to have everyone invited to keep costs reasonable so everyone is grateful for the other clubs' attendance.

[gulf911]

Thanks Adam,
It would be great to see/hear your views at the meeting on Tuesday next week. While this is not a sanctioned PCA meeting Robert will hopefully get some great idea's from everyone so we can enjoy more events. I think as long as the costs are amortized over the season we will not be able to compete on a venue by venue basis. I would hope that by now the BMW club has been invited to all the TT's.
If there is anyone that cannot make it to the meeting please feel free to PM me with any suggestions or comments and I can bring them up at the meeting. Please try and keep it clean..

Dan

[gulf911]

As an update to my previous post regarding POC costs, just an FYI... No different than PCA for ax's POC requires you be a member or assoc member and they will charge $20 for tech at the track. Overall you may get less track time as they run 5 groups instead of 4. Your mileage may vary, member FDIC, if rash devolops discontinue use...

[pecivil]

if costs would be significanlty reduced by doing joint club events (PCA/BMWCCA) I think this is worth looking into and I've all for it.

+1000

BMW club has one weekend DE planned this year at Chuckwalla in March and that's it. Gotta think they could support 1 more event in 2011. Maybe there could be a joint buttonwillow weekend so we could make it out there this year? Just a thought.

[kary]

I had someone here who understood what I was saying (earlier post). I hope that PCA, while I will not compete in their events will understand the times and that other clubs are needed to fill the gap......other Porsche clubs and non-Porsche clubs understand this so it is really simple, the execution is the difficult part. Elitests don't work today and for those of us that race other marques can be better or competition to existing drivers if ou want to see what you are made of.....compete or die it is your choice.

[325racer]

Just for reference, San Diego BMW CCA is hosting the Chuckwalla event coming up in March, we used to host an event at ButtonWillow every year, but have decided to move to CVR for various reason. However, SD is no the only chapter running events, LA Chapter, Central Chapter and even Golden Gate host events, even Road Runner (Arizona) used to host events. There were proabably on average 6-8 BMW CCA events per year in the Pacific region. These events are all cross promoted and pull from one instructor, student and racer pool.

So the reference to BMW having only 1 DE a year, that is really that the San Diego Chapter only hosts 1 DE per year.

With the change in economy and addition of much "lower end" DE's being available, BMW is feeling a pinch as well, but we are trying to do things to lower costs and increase entries. As far as events go, I know for a fact that a regular BMW CCA DE weekend is 2nd to only the Professional schools when it comes to actual Driver Education. Yes, BMW gets beat up on the cost of a 2 day event $400-500+ depending on track, but that generally covers a qualified dedicated instructor, lunch both days, plenty of waters, sometimes dinner and some SWAG.

I think there are plenty of opportunities that the two SD chapters can work together hosting events. I know currently there are logistic issues with sharing a day or even splitting a weekend. For example the way the Halloween Chuckwalla event was run was each club operated each day seperatly, which worked fine, but that format was far from a normal BMW event. The problem becomes entrants attending different days and both organizations trying to sort out the run groups, etc. A traditional BMW event would have instructors in every car, while the Chuckwalla event was mostly Instructors, racers and students that would normally solo after a check ride, and an actual race group.

So that said, SD BMW is more than willing to find ways to share or cross promote events, I'm not sure how willing our current staff is to pick up a second event per year, but I think it could be discussed.

[AGill]

I wanted to follow-up from my previous post in an effort help continue this discussion. I have been trying to get the information needed to compare a PCA and POC event on an apples to apples basis and at least from the information I have gathered (others can chime in on if it is accurate) I think the findings are worth sharing.

Adding up the costs for a 2-day event it seems SOW POC is $295 (registration fee + transponder) versus $350 for the same PCA event (although this total does not include the $25 timed run fee…so $375 for the TT’s). Other POC costs would include me needing to become a member which is over twice what a PCA membership is, so that has to be factored in as well; however, I’ll leave it out for this discussion. On the surface the POC event appears to be cheaper and it is in absolute dollars; however, looking at what you get for the money also helps analyze things further. POC uses 5 run groups and allows up to 120 drivers (not sure how many they actually get) which would be 25 per run group. PCA uses a 4 run group format and allows a maximum of 80 drivers (20 per run group). Now, clearly with the tough economic times I don’t think either club is maxing out their participant numbers but I’ll make the assumption that the attendance is relative to those maximum numbers. So, say a POC event has 80 drivers, I’m guessing a PCA event would have around 55. The point here is that a PCA event offers more track time (4 run groups not 5) and less cars on the track during that track time. Bottom line, I think a PCA event will usually give a better weekend in terms of quality and quantity of driving. Doing some quick math it seems that on a track time basis a POC event is almost the same as a PCA event due to one getting 25% more track time at a PCA event (295x1.25 = $369 for an equivalent POC event vs. $375 for a timed PCA event). And, if one chose not to do timed runs it would be $25 cheaper for a PCA event. On top of that, if one decided to sign up for the Season Pass the price would drop another $25.

So, when looking at the two clubs in this way it seems to me that each club offers a different package and I’m sure each appeals to different people. The POC event has a lower weekend cost but you get less track time overall. For those that need a cheaper event, this may be the best choice for them. PCA on the other hand seems to offers a better quality/quantity of track time so for those that are willing/can pay a higher overall cost they also get more for that extra cost.

I hope others in a similar situation as me find this useful. I’m sure I’m missing, or am not entirely accurate, on all my data so maybe the more experienced folks can chime in if they see an error or if they can contribute other costs I’m missing for either club.

I look forward to seeing everyone I already know at streets and also look forward to meeting those that I don’t.

Happy New Year!

[Mmagus]

Acording to what I have been told by a POC member (Paul Young Sr.), that cost is only for the practice runs, timed are extra, and races, an additional charge. You may want to drop him a PM for more info.

[ChuckS]

Adam,

I have participated in both club's events at all levels and would be willing to discuss both with you, but would prefer to not do it on the forum. PM me if you would like to get together. There are at least a dozen people who have done both and may be willing to contribute.

Chuck Sharp

[Mike]

Out of the blue one of the discount track day providers sent me the following note...
Not only are they promoting their events on all forums they are also tempting PCA instructors with event discounts.
You don't want me to post the entry fee with the instructor’s discount .

I see you are a PCA instructor...
That's very cool,I am also a PCA member,if you ever make it out to one of our events let me know we can give you a discount on your track day if you can help us with instruction for new students. My email is

Y and I met Carl Scragg/PCA President at the Auto show, he as always was very helpful explaining the status of PCA track events.
I was able to pass on to Carl my 2 cents as well.
I will not be at the round table but I am still interested in attending Chuckwalla this spring with PCA.

Great time to shop bare root roses at Kinffings nursery in east El Cajon, that's my plan for this week.