WHO'S IN WHAT CLASS IN 2012?

[ttweed]

The first thing you notice when you look at the TT season results is that there seems to be more competition and more drivers in each class.

It seems to me that there are TOO MANY cars in CC06 and not enough in the classes above that, only 3 in CC05 and 2 in CC01 (which may be a result of people just putting themselves in the highest class because they didn't want to figure out their points exactly). There are NONE in CC02, CC03 or CC04. That seems odd to me. When you look at the class structure, CC06 is where the classing points "granularity" turns from 50 points per class to 100 points per class. Maybe that should be changed and the 50 point cutoffs maintained for longer in the progression? Do those cars in CC01 really have 1200+ points? I am having a hard time imagining that Ron Palmer's car actually has 1200+ points. That seems to me to be very difficult to modify a Porsche enough to point out that high, unless you afre starting with 850 base points like a 997 GT2 or Carrera GT. Maybe the progression should be something more like:
CC06 = 701-750 points
CC05 = 751-800
CC04 = 801-850
CC03 = 851-925
CC02 = 926-1000
CC01 = 1001+

Remember, GGR has a whole set of GT classes for cars over 650 mod points. We didn't bring that idea over to our classes, so we have compressed the class schedule even more than they have. Their GT classes include "All Cup cars" in GT-C as well. The way our rules read currently, any Porsche factory race cars run in X with the non-Porsches. Is that what we want?

Just my thoughts,
TT

[Mmagus]

If we can get an online points calculator like GGR has to classify cars, that will make it a lot easier for drivers to class their cars and then we can see who's in each class and which mods they're using.

This seemed to do pretty well: http://forum.pcasdr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4740

[Jad]

The first thing you notice when you look at the TT season results is that there seems to be more competition and more drivers in each class.

It seems to me that there are TOO MANY cars in CC06 and not enough in the classes above that, only 3 in CC05 and 2 in CC01 (which may be a result of people just putting themselves in the highest class because they didn't want to figure out their points exactly). There are NONE in CC02, CC03 or CC04. That seems odd to me. When you look at the class structure, CC06 is where the classing points "granularity" turns from 50 points per class to 100 points per class. Maybe that should be changed and the 50 point cutoffs maintained for longer in the progression? Just my thoughts,
TT

Before we start creating too many classes again, lets remember only 4-5 cars in cc06 really run consistently for timed runs. I don't think we need to chop the class too much. The entire point of this exercise was to increase class size!

[ttweed]

Before we start creating too many classes again, lets remember only 4-5 cars in cc06 really run consistently for timed runs. I don't think we need to chop the class too much.

My suggestion doesn't create any more classes, it just allows more flexibility for participants. Remember that one of the other "attractions" of this classing system was that one could easily move between classes to "choose" your competition level by configuring the car slightly differently. When there is only 50 points difference between classes, this can be done a lot more easily than when there are 100 points between classes. Seeing that CC06 has such a much higher concentration of entries than other classes, and that it is exactly where this "100-point span per class" begins, with very few participants in the classes above, just made me think there may be a connection.

The entire point of this exercise was to increase class size!

I can see that it HAS increased your class size, Jad , but if some of the people from CC06 were allowed (or forced) to move up, it would actually increase the class size of CC05 and CC04, which is paltry to non-existent at the moment. Don't those guys want more competition too? If you really want larger classes, more consolidation would be necessary. Fully 11 out of the 16 classes have 3 or less entrants this year--more than that if you apply the "regularly take timed runs" standard. The largest groupings are in CC06 and CC09. To have an average class size of around 8, you would need to compress the class structure to a total of 5 maximum, with our level of participation. The two Spec classes, with a Stock, Prepared, and Modified Class for everyone else would do it, with about a 300 point spread between them. Then there's the two largest classes--Unknown and X.

If we want larger classes, then why are we still prohibiting factory race cars from entering them and making them run with the non-Porsches in X class? People have built clones of the RS and RSR cars that are probably faster than the originals, with modern components, and they are allowed to run in the CC classes if they start with a street-VIN tub. Why not allow a factory race car to calc their mods like everyone else and run there too? I think it's time to revisit that prohibition. With a 996 Cup car getting down in the $50K range, it's entirely plausible that someone might buy one for a fun and safe track car these days. What does it cost for a Simone-built TT car these days? Why not let Cup cars run for points in our series if they wanted to, even if it's in CC01? They are essentially a highly-modded stock 911 tub. There is no mystery to calculating their points and slotting them into a "CC" Porsche car class, instead of relegating them to run with the non-Porsche X cars. I don't see any reason to add a special GT-C class for them, as GGR did, unless there were enough to make up their own class.

Also, remember that this classing system is supposed to work for the AX as well as TT series next year.

TT

[Jad]

Sorry, guess I am confused. I thought you wanted to break the cc06 and higher classes in two to make 50 point ranges, instead of 100?

I do agree the factory racecars should be allowed, though i don't forsee many joining us, just because they get a regular class, but we should allow it.

If anything, I think we may still have too many classes. If 40 run for times runs, seems like 10 classes should be plenty. Hopefully this new system moves us toward that, and doesn't grow into a new monster.

See you in Chuckwalla!

[ttweed]

Sorry, guess I am confused. I thought you wanted to break the cc06 and higher classes in two to make 50 point ranges, instead of 100?

No, look at my post--I am suggesting keeping the 50-point spread for longer (through CC04), then raising it to only a 75 point spread at CC03, and topping out at 1000+ points for CC01 rather than 1200+. The number of classes is unchanged.

TT

[Greg Phillips]

I agree we need to include the production based factory race cars such as the cup cars and RSRs.

Not likely but I am not sure that we should include the RS Spyder

TOM- know anyone who has a cup car they are getting ready to track?
The more the merrier at Chuckwalla

Greg

[Gary Burch]

I like TT's approach to this.
The 50 point class differential is both a blessing and a curse, but all in all it works to provide a more competitive class structure. The flexibility is the fun part. It doesn't take much to move up and down in class. Think of all the folks you could harass.
At the present time I could be CC-15 thru CC-13, depends on the route I go.

[ttweed]

TOM- know anyone who has a cup car they are getting ready to track?

I might, but he is a BROKE-A$$ old curmudgeon who can't afford to run the whole TT series and would be just as happy to be in X class anyway.

TT

[Greg Trigeiro]

Jad wrote

If anything, I think we may still have too many classes. If 40 run for times runs, seems like 10 classes should be plenty. Hopefully this new system moves us toward that, and doesn't grow into a new monster.

Don't forget besides the 16 CC classes, there are also 10 SS classes in the 2012 Zone 8 rules.

[mrondeau]

The first thing you notice when you look at the TT season results is that there seems to be more competition and more drivers in each class.

It seems to me that there are TOO MANY cars in CC06 and not enough in the classes above that, only 3 in CC05 and 2 in CC01 (which may be a result of people just putting themselves in the highest class because they didn't want to figure out their points exactly). There are NONE in CC02, CC03 or CC04. That seems odd to me. When you look at the class structure, CC06 is where the classing points "granularity" turns from 50 points per class to 100 points per class. Maybe that should be changed and the 50 point cutoffs maintained for longer in the progression? Do those cars in CC01 really have 1200+ points? I am having a hard time imagining that Ron Palmer's car actually has 1200+ points. That seems to me to be very difficult to modify a Porsche enough to point out that high, unless you afre starting with 850 base points like a 997 GT2 or Carrera GT. Maybe the progression should be something more like:
CC06 = 701-750 points
CC05 = 751-800
CC04 = 801-850
CC03 = 851-925
CC02 = 926-1000
CC01 = 1001+

Remember, GGR has a whole set of GT classes for cars over 650 mod points. We didn't bring that idea over to our classes, so we have compressed the class schedule even more than they have. Their GT classes include "All Cup cars" in GT-C as well. The way our rules read currently, any Porsche factory race cars run in X with the non-Porsches. Is that what we want?

Just my thoughts,
TT

Keep in mind that this is just the TT series which is typically more "race cars" than street cars. In an AX series, you should have quite a few cars in CC06 to CC16. CC01 to CC05 are going to be more sparse due to the smaller number of extremely modified cars running in each class. I'm not sure how many cars are as modified as the fire breathing dragon that will be making it's debut at Chuckwalla.

If we leave the points progression the way it is, future P-cars will have an available progression to go to with a point spread that keeps them from being lumped together. We haven't seen any highly modified 997's & 987's yet. Once we do, the points could add up quickly.

[Jad]

Sorry, guess I am confused. I thought you wanted to break the cc06 and higher classes in two to make 50 point ranges, instead of 100?

No, look at my post--I am suggesting keeping the 50-point spread for longer (through CC04), then raising it to only a 75 point spread at CC03, and topping out at 1000+ points for CC01 rather than 1200+. The number of classes is unchanged.

TT

Got it, yes I read it too fast. That seems fine, when cc01 gets too full, we can add back points if needed . I think already some people are moving up to cc05 to get out of cc06 even though they only have points for cc06. Seems they feel their chances are better

[ttweed]

If we leave the points progression the way it is, future P-cars will have an available progression to go to with a point spread that keeps them from being lumped together. We haven't seen any highly modified 997's & 987's yet. Once we do, the points could add up quickly.

I thought about this possibility, and wondered about how the heck anybody could end up with a car with over 1200 points in CC01. So just for grins and giggles, I pointed out a 2008 997 Carrera that had EVERY possible mod done to it to make it the equivalent of the 997 Cup, short of transplanting the $40K Cup motor and $25K sequential box into it (which would be impractical, since it would be cheaper to just buy the used Cup car instead). This included adding Cup car slicks, increasing the track to widebody specs, LSD and short gears, brake upgrade, every possible suspension upgrade (shocks, springs, sways, monoballs), adding aero, and then stripping out 495 lbs. from the car to bring it down to Cup weight. This totaled out to 998 points, which would be CC04 class under our 2012 rules. Unless you started with a GT2 or Carrera GT with 850 base points and did mods to it that no rational owner would ever consider, I don't really see how you could get to 1200+ points and have to run in CC01.

CC01 to CC05 are going to be more sparse due to the smaller number of extremely modified cars running in each class.

My contention is that we are unlikely to see ANY cars correctly classed at higher than 1100 points. My justification for lowering the point threshold for CC01 to 1000+ is based on the premise that the most highly modded cars we would normally see at our events would not be any higher than this, even the cars that ran in our old AR2 class. If people are choosing to run CC01 because they don't want to be bothered with figuring out their actual point count (or are just running away from Jad's class ), that is another story. As part of this exercise, I pointed out an actual 2008 997 Cup as well (in case we were to allow such an "exotic" car to run in CC class instead of X) and it came out at 1207, due to the 209 pt. penalty for the increased HP of the Cup engine over the 997 C2, and this assumes that the listed 2530 lb. weight is not a dry weight but wet, with full fuel as our rule allows. Even if it is a wet weight, with 20 lbs. of ballast it would be under 1200 points. If we actually had some cars like this show up, maybe we would need to raise the maximum threshold, but more likely, it would just make the people who are running in CC01 by choice reconsider their classing calculation (or lack thereof).

I'm not sure how many cars are as modified as the fire breathing dragon that will be making it's debut at Chuckwalla.

It isn't all that "fire-breathing" or even modded as much as a lot of cars we see. If it makes it to Chuckwalla, it will actually be in X class and putt-putting around the track in the slowest group, pointing people by while short-shifting to break in a newly rebuilt engine, not running for time on Sunday. But if it was pointed-out under the current TT rules, starting as a base '91 C2, it comes in at under 901 points and would run in CC05 class, even using Cup slicks or 275/315 Hoosiers. I think that's about right, as it should have similar performance to Bob Brand's new car, and he is listed in CC05. If it had a stock '91 964 3.6L engine in it instead of a modded 3.8, it could lose 160 points and be in CC06 with Jad. Of course, the "exotic" VIN it started life with prevents running in any CC class at the moment.

TT

[Cajundaddy]

Another suggestion that was made recently was to consider flipping the classes around with CC01 being stock 356s, CC02 Stock 912s and 924s, and so on. As car performance evolves we can just add a new class instead of reinventing the numbering system. If Jensen Button wants to run his McLaren we can just point out the car and put him in CC1150 I still believe that if we get tire points right, many of the class size/performance issues will sort themselves out. With a well tuned point system, separate street stock classes are completely unnecessary.

[ttweed]

If Jensen Button wants to run his McLaren we can just point out the car and put him in CC1150

All McLaren's run in X class.

TT