Interesting thread about....

[Jackie C]

Thanks guys for this thread. I read it before work this morning and was pleased to see how the new timing system went since I was considering moving up to the STS. I'm holding back because there are such large numbers, as mentioned. Since there aren't a lot of TTs this year, I think drivers would jump at the chance to have one at the Q, if feasible. This might be the solution to getting the AXers who are on the fence about TTs to decide by bringing a TT to them. I'm in!

[Pete Millikin]

Ok then, we meet in the dead of night, cut the asphalt and bury the wire. It will be our secret timing loop with a special map to locate it - Start at the light pole in Section D4, proceed due east 16 paces, face south and proceed 3 paces.

[kary]

Ok then, we meet in the dead of night, cut the asphalt and bury the wire. It will be our secret timing loop with a special map to locate it - Start at the light pole in Section D4, proceed due east 16 paces, face south and proceed 3 paces.

I like it!! We can ask for forgiveness later if they ever catch us!!!!

[Tim Comeau]

Doh!!! (Jeff, always the funny one!)

Different opinions abound.
I don't want to know what you and your car can do consistently.I want to know the best lap you and your car are capable of.
Period.
That's what I have to beat. You have plenty of time during the event to get a clear lap and post your best time.
I don't want to hear, "I went 2 seconds faster during practice!"
If I didn't beat your fastest lap..........I didn't beat you ...period.

[Tim Comeau]

Also,...........you guys might be able to get a small slot cut in the asphalt for the timing loop. The stadium guys let the people with temp. tents drive 2" diameter stakes into the pavement, so why not a small trench?

[Curt]

Hey Tim,
I heard the Philadelphia Eagles had an amazing scrimmage on the Friday before the Super Bowl. Mc Nabb threw 17 touchdown passes and rushed for 200 yards against the practice squad. You guys might find a really receptive audience for this new timing concept in Philly today............

[Mike]

1. Not long ago SDR PCA had a rain out Sunday afternoon at a Big Willow TT. With the current system this event became a DE Sunday at 1pm, just before timed laps. With the new system at least all those that went would have received more than a 5 point rain out score. This rain out also had a significant impact on the season points standings.

2. With the new system if rain were forcasted on Sunday maybe more racers would attend if they knew a Saturday lap time could be used?

3. Agree staffing the timing all weekend would be required. To create competition and more interest the times from each session should be posted. If it were possible an ongoing updated sheet in the same format as the results tables would inform all each cars time and standing in class. This sheet could be posted 3 times a day? That would create more interest and allow drivers to set goals and not just grind out laps all weekend till timed runs. In the past leaving a TT Sunday afternoon without knowing the results has been a bit underwhelming. What if the final session for timed laps ended around 1pm. Then during a late lunch a small award ceremony could take place and the remaining run groups could be combined for the rest of the day. Those of us that had our fill could hit the road and try to get home a little bit early.

4. Agree this concept would be unfair at the Q where on a cone track the turns just open up and get faster lap after lap.

5. Please, please schedule some summer month DEs at the Q. The only thing better than sitting in your pool on a hot August afternoon while a Big Willow event is being sweated out is racing at the Q and enjoying the cool summer sea breeze.

[Tim Comeau]

Curt,
I think your analogy is a bit ....off. It would be a good analogy if I asked for a race to last all weekend.
These are time trials.

Mike, we did this system of posting your best lap with the POC last year. They just printed out the AMB results every couple hours? and posted them on the wall. It was fun as hell to compete all day. First, I had the time to beat, then Jason, then Chris Benbow. Our 944-spec class really enjoyed it and a show of hands revealed that almost every POC driver thought it was a better system all around.
It's no skin off my back either way, but I think this change is a good one.

[Jad]

I will race either way, but I don't like the best lap of the weekend system for several reasons. And the top ten are:

1. Instructors are definitely disadvantaged having a student in the car all weekend.
2. It encourages HOT laps first thing in the morning on cold tires with cold brains as the weather is often best then.
3. It gets very confusing if you share a car, or drive someone elses during the weekend for testing or teaching.
4. Cheating would be easy. Throw some Hoosiers on for a few laps sometime during the weekend, then go back to your xss class Sears Roadhandlers and how would anyone protest?
5. I tend to have fun and socialize much of the weekend, then only drive seriously for 1-2 sessions and the timed runs.
6. Drafting and following others lines can really help some drivers that can't do it on their own.
7. It would be very unfair to someone like Ralph who was driving a very fast car in a slow run group as he never gets a clean lap.
8. It might often discourage people from pulling over whenever they feel they are on a 'good lap' or diving under people to save a good lap.
9. It encourages driving at 110% because you might get lucky and get one lap where it all comes together (despite the 5 spins on other laps) which wouldn't happen with only the 2 lap timing.
10. I personally think a major part of competition is the rush you get coming up for the pressure of timed runs and having to come through when it counts, not choking.

And there are several others that I think over-ride the advantages of the all weekend timing.

[Curt]

Tim,
I never let facts or accurate analogies get in the way of my posts. It was just meant to be funny.

[gulf911]

Doh!!! (Jeff, always the funny one!)

Different opinions abound.
I don't want to know what you and your car can do consistently.I want to know the best lap you and your car are capable of.
Period.
That's what I have to beat. You have plenty of time during the event to get a clear lap and post your best time.
I don't want to hear, "I went 2 seconds faster during practice!"
If I didn't beat your fastest lap..........I didn't beat you ...period.

While I appreciate your opinion Tim, if you think consistency doesn't have anything to do with it I think you are mistaken. I'll gladly give up 1 fast lap of yours while I consistanly post faster times over all. Who's the faster driver? Sorry, but it really is simple math....If I am running 1:30's and you run one 1:29 and the rest 1:31's, who's ahead after a few laps? Who's the better driver? This is even more apparent in racing. There have been times I have been chasing somebody (faster) and posted a faster time for that run, its always easier to follow someone...follow their line, brake later, on the gas earlier etc etc. but if you can't do that consistently on your own , you are not the faster driver, period . What if I make a mistake in a corner miss my braking point and hold on through the corner carrying much more speed and gaining .5 second for that lap. Does that make me the faster driver? Hardly.

They just printed out the AMB results every couple hours? and posted them on the wall. It was fun as hell to compete all day.

What do you think happens now? You just described the last TT.
Also, as a side note I would not have wanted to be in Orange group and tried to post my fastest time during practice. Even with much smaller numbers you could see a train of cars most times. Thats why POC's idea is absurd with 120+ cars at SOW. But with that many cars they have to do something out of necessity.

I just saw Jad's post and we are in complete agreement. Nicely put and to the point, thanks Jad.

[Mike]

This reads like a book, sorry......
Hey guys not trying to rip anyone.
I guess we just see it from different angles.
Some are relating to this issue with more of an AX perspective and my racing in the last year has given me a different perspective.
Jad I'm not really trying to debate your top ten, just sharing my perspective about some of the issues you mentioned.

1. Instructors are definitely disadvantaged having a student in the car all weekend.

Could some solution be considered for this? How many students are typically at a TT? 2 or 3? Could they be assigned 3 instructors to make this a non issue?

2. It encourages HOT laps first thing in the morning on cold tires with cold brains as the weather is often best then.

Could some solution be considered for this? Maybe time but not count the first sessions?

3. It gets very confusing if you share a car, or drive someone elses during the weekend for testing or teaching.

Could some solution be considered for this? The chances of someone sneaking a better driver to record a winning time seems remote to me. About as unlikely as swaping a transponder into a faster car. Yes those that share a car would require a transponder for each drvier. Anytime anyone other than the owner is drivng the car the transponder should be removed or turned off.

4. Cheating would be easy. Throw some Hoosiers on for a few laps sometime during the weekend, then go back to your xss class Sears Roadhandlers and how would anyone protest?

Most the cars have small open trailers and most the tires are out for everyone to see all weekend. Again should we restrict everyone for the remote chance of someone sneaking tires. As a note all the PCA GT Club race classes have the either a DOT or Slick tire class, cheating does not happen there and I don't think it would at our local TT events either.

5. I tend to have fun and socialize much of the weekend, then only drive seriously for 1-2 sessions and the timed runs.

You can still do that.

6. Drafting and following others lines can really help some drivers that can't do it on their own.

Imho it is this experience that creates better drivers and encourages TT drivers to consider PCA Club racing.
This is in line with the PCA philosophy that drivers can improve and progress from AX to TT to Club racing.

7. It would be very unfair to someone like Ralph who was driving a very fast car in a slow run group as he never gets a clean lap.

Yes Ralphs situation needs to be addressed. I expect this too could be resloved. I’m not sure Ralphs logistics should out weigh or restrict everyone else and this concept?

8. It might often discourage people from pulling over whenever they feel they are on a 'good lap' or diving under people to save a good lap.

Agree, and as it is now not everyone will give you an automatic point bye. Again this challenge creates new skills for TT racers.
You must play the chess game of judging when to go for a good lap. You will have all weekend to get it so things should not get desperate till later Sunday. This new skill better prepares future racers for real qualifying where the situation is identical. Except in real qualifying you have just one session to get your best lap, here we have the luxury of two days to get one good lap.

9. It encourages driving at 110% because you might get lucky and get one lap where it all comes together (despite the 5 spins on other laps) which wouldn't happen with only the 2 lap timing.

5 spins? Hopefully the black flag will mitigate bonsai driving. Certainly being black flagged and watching your session slip away from the hot pits is some consequence.

10. I personally think a major part of competition is the rush you get coming up for the pressure of timed runs and having to come through when it counts, not choking

Yes but the old plan only means you have to drive well for two laps. The new way would reward those that drive well all weekend.

Imho the fastest drvier of the weekend would be the one with the best average lap time based on his 10 fastest laps.


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[ajackson]

The OTC combines the fastest 3 laps from the day to compare times so some consistancy is required.

[Jad]

Of course, solutions can be found for anything, but are the solutions as fair and worth it? If you want to 'race', then race, this is a TT series and I think the current system better represents that end.

Of course, at the end of your post you said the average of the 10 best times wins, which I like a lot better than the 1 lucky lap of the weekend system.

And one final point, you seem to assume TT's are training for racing. I do not think this is correct. For those who want to race, you basically have to TT, but most TT'ers never race and are not trying to become racers. TT are a completely seperate event from racing and are not meant to teach racing anymore than AX is designed to teach racing according to PCA.

[gulf911]

Well, you are right Mike, there are probably ways to make anything work...And I agree that it is most like an AX with 2 timed laps that count, however its still 1 fast lap time thats looked at (read AX), not an average. The bottom line is what you seem to be avoiding, we don't have an issue with overcrowding and time constraints which would make us look for another avenue as with POC.
And I would have to say that the issue with rain is the exception and not the rule.

Imho it is this experience that creates better drivers and encourages TT drivers to consider PCA Club racing.
This is in line with the PCA philosophy that drivers can improve and progress from AX to TT to Club racing

They can do this now, and they can see their times. If they have improved it should show during timed runs, imho...