Possible Zone 8 DE rule changes?

[Kim Crosser]

Herb,
Thanks for the kind words!
The changes re Open Cars by GPX would just bring them into compliance with the PCA National standards (which they should have been following already - there are some serious consequences mentioned in the National standards for failure to follow them). And yes, under those standards, the 993 you were in and my Boxster would both qualify with the factory protection.
From my browsing of other Regions' rules, it seems pretty consistent that regions allowing factory roll-over protection specifically say 1993 993 and later cabs and Boxsters are allowed, while earlier cabs need to have roll bars or cages added. The Boxster's roll bars have gotten some nice kudos in other forums for being a well-braced 4-point system (and some postings questioning the true value of the B-K bolt-on - will it really provide additional protection, or will it break off and be a bigger hazard there at head level? One of the drivers I talked with at SOW stated "In 95% of the rollovers, the B-K will break." [Ok - so I didn't buy his statistic either, but it was an interesting comment. ] If the number was even 5%, is the additional 1-3/4 inches of clearance worth a 1 in 20 chance of a broken steel bar moving around at head level? ).

[RickK]

Let's check some facts here. First, 993s did not come to the US until 1995.

Second, I believe that 993s have no pop-up or fixed rollover protection different from any previous 911 cab and that the 996 cab is the first 911 to have the pop-up bars. Anyone know something different here?

[ttweed]

iii. Add these two items to GPX DE rules"

To what does this refer, Herb? I wasn't aware that GPX had a separate set of DE rules outside of the Zone rules. Where are they published? I saw nothing on their website. Are they planning this for the future? I have attended 3 of their SOW events over the years, and it was always run as an autox, not a DE. Are they going to change that?

TT

[Kim Crosser]

Let's check some facts here. First, 993s did not come to the US until 1995.

Second, I believe that 993s have no pop-up or fixed rollover protection different from any previous 911 cab and that the 996 cab is the first 911 to have the pop-up bars. Anyone know something different here?

Rick - I believe you are correct. I quoted a part of the Las Vegas Region's DE rules (which do say: "In general this applies to all open-top cars manufactured prior to the 1993 993 Series 911 and 986 Boxster models. These and later Porsche 'soft-top' cars incorporated fixed or "pop-up" rollover protection." - so LVR seems a bit confused about this), but when I checked another Region's (Chicago's) rules, they do stipulate the "Boxster and 996" - not 993 or earlier. Not being a 911 expert, I wasn't aware of the error in the LVR rules.

Apologies for any confusion on this.

[Greg Phillips]

While the mount was "legal", it sure didn't seem "safe" to me - the prospect of having a 5-10 pound extinguisher loose in the car in a turn or spin made me a bit nervous.

That made you nervous? But the idea of you holding up a 3000lb car with your head doesn't??

A few years ago I was at a QDE and on the long straight back up the hill, which curved slightly to the right, my car let go (hoosiers), I was not prepared for how far the car slid off the track and if the tire would have blown (very possible) the wheel would dig in and could flip the car. Is it that expensive to comply with the broomstick rule? Or is it the modification aspect? Can this not be reversed?

So why would the possibility of losing a tire and rolling your car be any greater in a QDE than an autocross?
Once again we should all be running run-flat tires for safety
As far as the rollover safety of the Boxster, the windshield and roll hoops are to provide a protecetd space for the occupants using the factory harnesses. Yes if you put on a harness that locks you in an upright position then you probably should be looking at a broomstick rule.
But using the factor safety equipment should provide a "safe" space for the occupants in case of a rollover.
I was reading a recent article on Norman Dewis who was the Jaguar test driver from the 1950's up through the 1980's. He started in the era of no seatbelts and survived several (at least 5)major shunts at the test tracks over the years, including a Jaguar XJ13 incident. He still refuses to wear a seat belt! But he was a short man

Greg

[hmeeder]

Tom Wrote:

To what does this refer, Herb? I wasn't aware that GPX had a separate set of DE rules outside of the Zone rules. Where are they published? I saw nothing on their website. Are they planning this for the future? I have attended 3 of their SOW events over the years, and it was always run as an autox, not a DE. Are they going to change that?

Yeah, I found that a bit confusing, too. I think they are trying to straddle a self-constructed fence and trying to place their event somewhere between being an AX (which I don't feel it really is) and a DE (which it mostly is, except for the manner in which they time the runs in the afternoon.)

Since this was a Zone 8 AX points event, it has to have the blessing and sanction of the Zone as an AX(and was why Michael Dolphin was there to support it.)

Perhaps it was feedback from him that prompted the revision? Perhaps it was seeing the Hauptmans in their Beck replicas with barely a lap belt to keep them alive when they realized that just calling it an AX doesn't make the track environment any less hazardous? They ran the track CCW which made the front straight a white knuckle flat out ride and everyone took advantage of the extra gravity boost. Watching Mike Gagen's monster flashing to a buck and a half in a quarter of a heartbeat certainly drove home how much potential there is for things to change very quickly.

Truthfully, I don't know what Skip meant. Perhaps it is their intention to call a spade a spade and run future events as a DE with an AX timed run component. That could work. At any rate, that they should even refer to "GPX DE rules" seems odd. They are planning another event in October and perhaps the issue will come up then. Should I plan on attending, I will certainly ask.

Holy crap! I completely missed the fact that the 993 Cab has no roll over protection. Where the hell is my head at? It could have been scraped clean off my shoulders! Pretty poor excuse for a tech inspector I am.

[rshon]

Satisfying the "Broomstick Rule" in a Boxster with a Brey-Krause Rollbar Extension:

The two most important measurements on the driver are torso length (bottom of the bum to the top of the head) and the helmet thickness on top, not height. The height of the Rollbar Extension IS limited by the clearance of the top, both when moving up and down, and when in place. Besides lowering the seat all the way and reclining the backrest to get under the broomstick, the only remaining alternative is to install a racing seat and bolt it to the floor (eliminating the height of the sliders). But if the rules about having a similar setup for both driver and passenger apply, then that's TWO racing seats a prospective participant would have to purchase.

Fire Extinguishers:

My understanding is that fire extinguishers are most often used to put out SOMEONE ELSE'S CAR, so everybody please have your fire extinguishers with you in case my car catches fire. I will be the one sitting there looking dazed. While I think it's unlikely that a novice with an SS or S car will catch fire, it's probably always a good idea to have a fire extinguisher anyway. It IS a hassel to mount it the first time if you don't have a roll cage and you don't want to drill your car.

DE's as a Teaching situation/Hearing from Students:

I've attended DE's mostly as a student, and I think it's a great way to expand your driving skills. The instructors were great, and I learned a lot from them(especially about how to keep it safe and real out there with the more experienced drivers). The last QDE I attended was so popular with students that they ran out of instructors and I was pressed into service as a provisional instructor. Ironically, my student's car was an SS Boxster with harnesses but no Rollbar Extension (the driver was short enough to not need it). I was never the least bit scared, and I'll tell you why: it was the attitude of the drivers, and especially of the folks running the DE.

The DE crew made sure that everyone understood that safe driving was priority #1, and that violations of the driving rules (and especially unsafe driving) would not be tolerated (except for SOME people ignoring the blue flag). It's a parking lot, and the speeds should be significantly slower than at a track (by design). It is not a race, it is not a time trial, it is not even an autocross for time.

If we really want drivers to have the opportunity to step up their learning, than we have to consider the barriers we are throwing up that will hinder their participation, and weigh that against the relative risks. For many, this is their first opportunity to see if they even want to go on to more DE's and eventually Time Trials, so the possible expense may deter some if they're not sure they're going to keep at it. It's obvious that the various regional rules are all over the map on this issue. Heck, even our own rules are less stringent than when I first started attending DE's.

What really matters is attitude, not equipment. If it's really an educational opportunity, then the design of the course and our enforcement of safe driving practices will be the most important factors. If instead we approach it as if it's an unofficial in-town Time Trial without transponders, then students can't have enough safety equipment.

What is the objective of the DE and who does it serve?

[ttweed]

What is the objective of the DE and who does it serve?

This is a moving target, and is changing all the time, as well as being different things to different people. In my relatively short, 10-years experience with this club, there was never a DE event until the first Fontana club race. The objectives for that were quite different, due to the nature of the track. There was a strict focus on safety because of the high-speed nature of the Speedway's roval circuit. Other than that first DE, there had only been autox and time trial programs. We wrote a special set of rules for SDR DE events especially for that event. Now the Speed Festival has a become a Zone 8 function, and the DE portion of it has evolved into a Time Trial, as is part of the TT series. The coming of a club race to So Cal has elicited huge growth in that level of racing, and the number of new club racers the region has produced has grown rapidly, adding another layer of complexity to the situation.

When I started out, the club had only the autox program, and usually two Time Trials per year, one in Holtville, and one at the stadium. When Holtville closed down, Jack Miller took off with the TT series, building it into a 5-7 event per year program at the big tracks.

When the Padres moved to Petco Park, more weekend dates opened up at the stadium, and there were possibilities for us to schedule more than the PDS and the autox series events there. Since we were no longer running TT's at the Q, it was decided that a couple of DE events could be scheduled there. This was a much different venue from the Speedway, though, and this is where the "fuzziness" of purpose, or objectives, and the debate over safety requirements, begins, in my mind.

This "DE at the Q" idea is a relatively new development in the club's performance driving program, and I think it is still evolving. It is a lot of different things to different people. For some, it is an educational opportunity, a step up from autox to continuous lapping, without having to make a commitment to a lot of travel or expense. To some, it may be a way to add seat time and experience towards a competition permit, or to keep one current. For others it can be more of a "test and tune" practice day for their time trial and club racing cars. I would like to see us accomodate all types of interest in it, and hope we continue doing them.

Personally, I feel that while there are specific hazards in the parking lot that aren't as prevalent at big tracks (curbs, light poles and the odd porta-potti), it is generally a safer venue because of the lower speeds involved, which depends somewhat on course design. If we are responsible enough about our course design, do not get carried away with long straights and fast sweepers, and strictly diligent in our instruction of students, I don't have any problem with relaxing safety standards somewhat, but only for that single class of driver (entry level, in a SS car). If the idea of relaxing safety standards is to promote participation on the part of those who wonder if they would like performance driving beyond autox, but are hesitant to modify their cars, or spend the money to prep them, than there is no reason to have exceptions other than for students, is there?

This would mean no student is EVER on the track by himself. This means that instructors would demand that their students walk before they run, that they build up speed incrementally, demonstrating smoothness, focus, knowledge of the line and car control before picking up the pace. Anyone who finds themselves with a student who won't listen and follow instructions, or who "cowboy's-up" and starts being a scary yahoo, it's up to them to put the clamps on immediately, for their own safety and that of others.

As a student, if you don't obey your instructor, you don't drive anymore. If you do more than four events, and are ready to be signed off, or you want to run in the non-student group, or put R-compound tires on and go faster, you prep your car. Period. That's how I feel about it, and I'm sure their are differing opinions out there.

Yes, accidents can happen, but I can see us running a safe program in that kind of environment, with the kind of safety exceptions Kim is asking for--no extinguishers and no broomstick rule, w/ stock restraints, but only for students in SS cars.

TT

[mrondeau]

As a student, if you don't obey your instructor, you don't drive anymore.

I agree completely - As a new AX driver who will want to step up to DE's when I qualify, I want to keep myself, my instructor and my new car as safe as possible and feel that everyone else on the track is doing the same. I may not want to turn my 06 Boxster S into a TT racer, but I do want to become a better driver and make that decision after a few DE's. That's my input as "student driver"

[tb911]

Our Board has stated that for SDR DE events we will abide exactly by the Zone 8 rules - no waivers or exceptions.

I think that says it all, then, about whether we as a region think it is a worthwhile idea or have the "will" to do this. Regardless of what support you may drum up at the grassroots level, I seriously doubt you are going to be able to influence all the other regions in the Zone to change the rules to suit your purpose, then, if our own region does not support the idea. How many other regions in the Zone hold DEs in parking lots? None, that I am aware of. This would be a rule specifically for our region, then, and if our region isn't pushing it, why would it get changed?

We previously held DEs under a separate set of rules for SDR only, so there is no reason it could not be done again.

TT

It's not that our region (meaning the board) isn't pushing for this change. And it's also not that they are pushing for it. I would say the board has not made a position known. What position they have made clear, so far, is that they don't want to be in the rule making business. That is why they state we follow Zone 8 rules. We used to have our own DE rules. They were ignored for 5 years and very out of date when they were ultimately (and rightly) abandoned. Making and maintaining rules is a time consuming process. Since the Zone does this every year already, the board has decided we might as well use what they come up with and save ourselves the time and trouble. Zone rule changes can be suggested by individuals, not just by regions. So if Kim wants to make a suggestion, the zone will listen. To be honest, I really applaud this situation. It always bothers me when a region decides to do their own thing without discussing their desires with the zone and attempting to work with the zone.

As for GPX & OCR - what they are doing is sanctioned by the Zone. While it may not be obvious, they are running two events in one day. In the morning they are running a regional DE and following (someone's) DE rules. They have DE insurance from national. Afterwards, they are running a Zone 8 Autocross. The Autocross is supposed to be according to Zone 8 rules, of course.

I have heard GPX follows national DE standards. I've also seen the mentioned reference to having their own DE rules. I don't know which is correct. I also don't know why they don't use Zone 8 DE rules, though I suspect they feel that the Zone 8 rules are too strict on safety equipment. I hope that someday they express their concerns about the Zone rules so that we can work to alleviate them.

The rules are about safety, fairness and fun. Balancing these three is never easy. Obviously these regions feel the Zone 8 rules don't meet their needs. Rules are of no value if they are passed over, so we need to work together to best determine how to meet the needs of all the regions. Remember the Zone government (like the region's) is here to serve the membership. I encourage everybody to work with Zone to help achieve this, and thank those that do.