SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby UKAYMAN on Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:10 pm

Cajundaddy wrote:Thanks to all for a very well run AX at the Q. PCA-SDR events always manage to run smoothly even when a bit short handed in leadership positions. Extra thanks to Kim Crosser for tightening the loose nut behind the steering wheel in my car. I shaved 2 secs in the timed runs by applying the patented "Crosser AX formula". :rockon:

BRI question: I noticed my BRI took a big hit from 2009 to 2010 with no significant BSX class rule changes and was just curious why? Last year I was rated the same as 944spec which seemed like a pretty close performance comparison. In 2010 my little 2.5L pea shooter is nearly stock with full interior and 100 DOTR tires but is now BRI rated faster than a Cayman S 3.4L which has 50% more power, better brakes, wider tires, better suspension and nearly the same weight. I have driven a Cay S and it feels like a rocket ship compared to my car. How does this all get calculated? :?:


I'm not sure how the BRI gets calculated but I was wondering what the BSX (Boxster Spec X) class was all day yesterday, and after reading your post I decided to look it up. From my understanding a Spec X car can run bone stock, and run with the Boxster Spec cars. As long you meet all the safety requirements for this, you're good. I'm not sure if i'll be answering your question or stating the obvious, but it seems like in BSX you have a free rain as to how much you want to modify your car upto, but not quite to that of the Spec class cars, and then only take some of the BRI hit that they do. If that is the case, then that is a bonus deal, because the BRI hit is only 1.057, the same as an LS car. The Boxster Spec cars take 1.082! Carl Vanderschuit and Russell Shon ran their boxsters in LS and MS and were always placing high in the BRI, but they utilized their points for their class well with sticky tires, suspension mods, sway bars, camber plates etc. I didn't read the BSX rules in depth, but I got the impression you could run more modifications in BSX than in LS and take the same BRI hit? If all you're running is sticky tires in that class, then it could be you're not utilizing what that class has to offer enough to make the difference the BRI factor that is associated with it.

Last year I had a Cayman S with PASM (factory installed option) and I had to run in NS even though it was on street tires and had no mods to it. I was hit hard with a 1.071 BRI factor, and running against other guys who had tuned their cars to suit the class. Had I been able to run in NSS I would have placed higher in the BRI, but that is how the class rules worked at that time. Kim Crosser pushes his Boxster amazingly well in LSS on street tires and usually lands up there in the top 10 BRI so the BRI factors do seem fair.

You also reminded me of an interesting experience I witnessed last year at an AX. At El Toro with the OCR club, some of the top gun drivers ran on street tires during practice sessions in a stock Cayman S putting in 70-71s lap times, and then switched to new sticky slick tires and put in 67.5s during timed runs running in NS. They cleaned up in the BRI because the tires alone made so much of a difference.

I realize i've gone off on a tangent here and not really answered your question, so I apologize for that, but at least I know what a BSX classified car is now :D


Great AX guys. That left hander kink that you approached before the down hill section was a real challenge.. but very very cool!!

Keep up the good work!!
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Carl Vanders on Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:59 pm

Sounds like a fun day at the Q. Sorry i missed it. Hopefully my car will be done for the feb.event.

Here is a link to the allowed BSX mods http://www.boxsterspecracing.org/bsxrules.html
According to the new rules for both The LS and BSX cars (BSX cant run camber plates this year) should be pretty close in time with 1 sec nod in my opinion going to a properly set up LS car. The key difference is that in LS you can run A6 hoosiers. There are several options with the LS car including running r888's and additional mods than the BSX to choose from. In BSX you can add a few more goodies like monoball drop and toe links. On the track i would think they would be closer in times.


Quote"You also reminded me of an interesting experience I witnessed last year at an AX. At El Toro with the OCR club, some of the top gun drivers ran on street tires during practice sessions in a stock Cayman S putting in 70-71s lap times, and then switched to new sticky slick tires and put in 67.5s during timed runs running in NS. They cleaned up in the BRI because the tires alone made so much of a difference."

I believe the tires they ran that day were old stock size dunlops about to cord- (not Z1 star specs) I ran the car at an event prior and they were at least a second down in time. In addition, they are larger tires and lagged in gearing. The car was at least 1.5- secs slower than fresh Dunlops Z1 star specs. I believe they cleaned up as they were some of the best drivers out there. You did very well, 4 or 5 out of the top ten BRI have ten years plus and are all trophied nationals drivers. You should, next time your up there, catch a ride with any of them (or ask them to jump in) . I do it all the time and it really helps! (and it's fun). You will be able to drop 1-2 seconds pretty quickly. Watch out Kim!

Hey, side note, awesome to see Jackie and three 944 specs in the top ten BRI! way to go
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Cajundaddy on Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:33 pm

Nice driving Saturday Hassan! A top ten overall is a win in my book.

Regarding the BRI: Ultimately it is just for kicks and grins so my feathers are not really ruffled over it. I am just curious why the big change from 2009 (1.04) to 2010 (1.057) when the class rules did not change, and how does it predict performance in BSX class. I believe Carl is right that the LS and BSX are very similar with the major difference being softer tires allowed with LS cars. I think an LS car on Hoosiers or V710s would easily outrun a maxed out BSX car on R888s or NT-01s. After driving a bone stock Cayman and a Cayman S on an AX course with PS2 street tires I think it is unlikely a maxed out BSX car could enter the performance envelope of either. They really are that good! Again, I am just curious how the BRI is derived.

So Carl, when are you gonna come out and play?
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Don Middleton on Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:50 pm

Cajundaddy wrote:...How does this all get calculated? :?:


The whole thing is a mystery. :? Carl Scraag keeps the key to unlocking its truths deep in the recesses of his mind. See his BRI-ness for your answer.

944 Spec beware! Dominating the BRI can lead to a change in the algorithms kept by his BRI-ness. Those of us who once drove in the IS class know only too well. :wink:

Seriously, shoot Carl a PM and ask for some insights.
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby rshon on Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:03 am

UKAYMAN wrote: Carl Vanderschuit and Russell Shon ran their boxsters in LS and MS and were always placing high in the BRI, but they utilized their points for their class well with sticky tires, suspension mods, sway bars, camber plates etc.

...and where are they now? (sitting in their respective garages, scratching their respective heads...).

I see the source of your confusion, Dave. There are TWO different sets of BRI numbers, one for TT's and another for AX's. Your BSX is rated as closer to a 944 spec car on the track because they are stripped-out race cars and yours is essentially a prepped street car. But in an autocross, your acceleration and transitional advantage are a bigger plus over a 944 spec car (just try drag racing one of them). The exact method of calculating the BRI is shrouded in mystery, and best left to a, er, "BRI Wizard".

Hassan is also right, in order to really represent in BRI you really have to have your car setup to cover most if not all of the allowable mods for the class. So if you don't have PSS9's and sway bars (which I believe are part of the BSX spec), you're probably not going to do as well in the BRI rankings. These are the kind of things that are going to give a BSX or LS/MS car the edge over a LSS/MSS car, even one with slightly more power.

Keep working on the nut behind the wheel. I'm just an O.K. driver with a (sometimes) very well set up car. I am constantly looking over my shoulder to see Kim in a stone-stock Boxster :shock: . Carl V. can pretty much drive anything to a high BRI placing (provided he can keep his wheels on :roflmao:).
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby gulf911 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:08 am

Well, I don't know what all the fuss is about...I think the BRI is fine right where it is... :lol:

Thanks to all for a memorable, probably once in a lifetime, event. I'm just sorry Eric K wasn't there to see it...well, not so much sorry than glad he wasn't.. :lol:

I have decided I can only go downhill from here so I may go out on a high note! Thanks for the great custom pen, wine, and the congrats, I really appreciate it.

Thanks again
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Carl Scragg on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:14 am

I think I must be dreaming. . . . Did I actually hear Dan issue faint praise for the BRI? Maybe you can see the world better when you're standing on the top of the mountain. Wow! Winning both TTD and the BRI. (And we tried to design the BRI so that would never happen.) Awesome times Dan!  :bowdown:

Regarding the Boxster spec class:

I'm not sure who is updating the BRI this year, so I can't speak to what their logic was in making the changes. But I can tell you what was done to generate the index for the 944 spec class. We just added up the points associated with all the legal modifications under the 944 spec rules and concluded that a fully prepped 944 spec car would fall under our GP class. Thus 944 spec has the same index as GP. Using similar logic, I would guess that a fully prepped Boxster spec car would be in either LS or LP, but I'm sure you know the spec rules much better than I do. My $0.02.

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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Amail on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:58 am

I'm not sure what changes were made overall, but it seems to have helped us here in GSS. I've never gotten that high a BRI rating (not that I'm complaining!) :rockon:
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Jackie C on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:01 pm

Ok, but after leaving 944 spec and actually going to GP, I was punished with the new index. Not the same....
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby galis on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:20 pm

Amail wrote:I'm not sure what changes were made overall, but it seems to have helped us here in GSS. I've never gotten that high a BRI rating (not that I'm complaining!) :rockon:


With times of 1:17.98, 1:17.98, and 1:17.94, it it safe to assume you are maxed out and won't be getting any faster?!?! Maybe I'll place better if I bump myself up to GS!
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Carl Scragg on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:33 pm

Jackie C wrote:Ok, but after leaving 944 spec and actually going to GP, I was punished with the new index. Not the same....


You're right Jackie. I forgot about an adjustment that was made in response to the collective whining of the 944 spec drivers :banghead:

They argued successfully that they could not keep up with the number 55 car and deserved a break. In the interest of keeping these poor guys from getting chicked every week, the 944 spec class was given a slightly more favorable index than the Jackie Corwin class.

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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby MTrotter on Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:53 pm

yes. but a fully prepared GP car is the same in all reguards to a SPEC944 excepting one... The power plant. Jackie takes the hit in GP because of her 2.7 when the cars in SPEC944 are limited to a 2.5

2.5 might be better than the 2.7 in most autox situations but on the bigger tracks or longer autox's the 2.7 can really shine
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Amail on Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:09 pm

galis wrote:
Amail wrote:I'm not sure what changes were made overall, but it seems to have helped us here in GSS. I've never gotten that high a BRI rating (not that I'm complaining!) :rockon:


With times of 1:17.98, 1:17.98, and 1:17.94, it it safe to assume you are maxed out and won't be getting any faster?!?! Maybe I'll place better if I bump myself up to GS!


Either that, or I'm consistently making exactly the same mistakes :shock:
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby Flätsix on Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:01 pm

Thank you to the SDR Otto-X team, as always you do a great job.

Mr. Tweed nice to see you after a few years. Good to see that Dan isn't using a walker yet.

I had a Blast and was happy to get in some form a racing while the racecar is being built. Thanks for letting me use the car Honey! XOXOXOXOXOX

Image

It looks like Niraj might be a tough guy to beat without buying the Mrs. an extra set of wheels and Hoosiers for Valentines day. Untill that happens:

1) I was "rusty". All my seat time has been in a 747-400 to Hong kong and back for the past three years.
2) Chorizo burrito from the Maggot Wagon made me dizzy.
3) '05 Boxster only has like 185hp compared to Cayman S with like 375hp
4) iPhone hook-up was sketchy and I didn't have my theme music.
5) Engine is in the wrong place!
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Re: SATURDAY AUTOCROSS

Postby gulf911 on Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:16 pm

Flätsix wrote: Good to see that Dan isn't using a walker yet.


Apparently , thats all I would have needed to beat you... :shock: :lol:

Great seeing you too Allan.. :beerchug:
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