X-cars at AX

[AGill]

If I had to choose, I'd choose to drive in less events with my Marque compatriots. If I want vehicular variety, I'll join SCCA.

Just my snobbish, self-righteous opinion.

Well, Dan, your comment has compelled me to share my viewpoint. I always respect your comments as well as the entertaining candor in which you give those comments; however, I have to disagree with you on the above point. Bottom line, I like driving...a lot...and I want the opportunity to drive as much as possible (we all can’t make all the AX events each year). The Q offers a very convenient and entertaining venue to spend a day having fun in my car, with my friends and the satisfaction of helping a new driver further their performance driving skills in a safe environment. If someone were to cut the number of events in an ATTEMPT (this is not proven that it would work as there are countless other “market” variables at play here) to run a profitable event, this would disappoint me far more than having to share the track with a select group of X-cars.

I understand the "privilege" and "exclusiveness" you talk about but I don't think anyone is suggesting that the idea of allowing X-cars to attend events should be in perpetuity. Rather, we are discussing a temporary bend in the rules to allow the club to run its events as it has in the past during an economic rough patch. I have been to a few OCR AX’s and can tell you that the level of…well, to be politically correct…marquee diversity exhibited there is admittedly not desirable to me. In addition, when the nice guy in his yellow SRT-4 Neon pulled in and parked next to me 2 AX’s ago, I blinked several times, this is not desirable to me either. However, when the guy in a well set up corvette who could clearly drive was playing with us this past weekend, I was happy to have him participate. This is my point, as with everything in life…there is an appropriate balance I think we need to achieve as a club. Personally, I would rather run the same number of AX events as always if this balance is met.

We could do the following:
- Set a maximum number of X-cars allowed…up to 10 seems reasonable???
- Make a list of “approved” manufacturers/cars so there is no grey area.
- Make sure each of these drivers are cleared by a CDI/AX Chair or the like prior to the event.
- Kick them out if they are too fast and start beating too many of the p-cars………

As a caveat and potential retort to my own argument…I will admit that if the number of events at the Q were reduced, I would find myself searching for other outlets for my sickness. This would give me, and I’m guessing others, more motivation to participate in DE and TT events.

[MTrotter]

Adam,

Let me get this straight? Corvette good? Neon bad?

Hmm.

What other cars would be on this "approved list"? Who would make this list? Can I be on the panel of decieding people?

What if I want to bring an STS Prepared Miata (Mazda) to an event that I drive? It placed 5th Nationally... That means it was the 5th fastest car in class out of hundreds in the country. With the right driver it could deffinatly get into the top ten if not top 3 raw times in a Qualcomm event.

It would also be quiet... as it has a stock motor. ha ha. yea stock. Deffinatly under 93db.

so... how fast is your Porsche?

I dont think it should depend on the car... this conversation is getting way out of hand with the snobbish ideals.

Is everyone affraid of getting beat by a 4cyl import from Pacific area?

I really dont get it, and frankly dont care.

P.s. if I sold all my Porsche vehicles, I could raise 50% of the cost of a new (well equipped) Honda Accord.

If Dan Chambers sold his car to go halves on the Accord with me we might have enough money to get the windows tinted. (Thanks Dan )

how snobby are we now?

[gulf911]

With the right driver it could deffinatly get into the top ten if not top 3 raw times in a Qualcomm event.

Not at the last ax, and probably not at any well attended SDR ax either... Not Elitist, just realistic.. But you can bring it anytime you want, knock yourself out...

"That means it was the 5th fastest car in class ..."
What? against other Miata's??... I'll assume there weren't any 911's in that class..

I know I know , who pee'd in my cornflakes...

[AGill]

Morgan,

I don't think you were at the event with the Neon, it was running headers with straight pipes and was much louder than I think any other car out there...it drew unnecessary attention to itself which is probably a large part of why it ruffled some feathers. The Neon was an example of how an obnoxious X-car that likely violated the sound requirements was not as widely accepted (at least based on this thread and others I talked to at the event).

The "approved" list is a hypothetical idea, if it has merit great, someone can use it constructively. If not, that’s fine too, maybe it should not matter what kind of car it is, maybe it should be more about the driver, I’m just trying to find that balance to be able to drive my car as much as I can and not reduce the number of events. I mentioned the corvette to actually illustrate the fact that an X-car can play with us and be respected by throwing down impressive times. The corvette was also an example, you can feel free to insert your STS Miata in that quote if you like as I know you are a good driver and the car is clearly well set up by its past performance...I'm sure it would have some very fast times. This I think is where the idea of limiting the number of X-cars comes into play...if there were, say, 10 cars with good drivers, I personally don't think it would take away from the "Porscheness" of the events too much and we can all get along, be happy and the club won't suffer financial loss (or as much)...if there are 50 of these cars I don’t think I could personally make the same statement.

How fast is my Porsche…really??? I don’t think this should turn into a “my car can beat up your car” kind of thread. My car is as fast as the nut behind the wheel…if that nut is me then that means I get beat by cars with half my horsepower and 2 fewer cylinders every time I show up. I still cheer those cars/drivers on because I know it’s not about the particular platform each of us drive, it’s about pushing that platform and ourselves to the absolute maximum performance within those constraints. I believe this is why we have so many different classes…

Let’s keep it classy

[kleggo]

hi

[gulf911]

[kleggo]

Morgan,

I don't think you were at the event with the Neon, it was running headers with straight pipes and was much louder than I think any other car out there...it drew unnecessary attention to itself which is probably a large part of why it ruffled some feathers. The Neon was an example of how an obnoxious X-car that likely violated the sound requirements was not as widely accepted (at least based on this thread and others I talked to at the event).

lot's of interesting viewpoints on this thread, looking back, i think that Greg's schema seems to make sense. Just add this caveat, if it''s not already required, enforce the "rule" that a CDI or similar do a check ride and sign off each untested X class driver / car. I'll bet a certain co-CDI would have made it interesting on the Neon driver if given the chance. And that would have been to our benefit IMO.

I say, X class, bring it on with the check-ride stipulation.

cheers

Craig

[ttweed]

Want to join? Own a Porsche. Exclusive? Yes. Privileged? Sure. It's the reward of hard work, dedication to earned success, and the sense of earning what you worked so hard for. So: Porsche Club event? Porsche cars. Period. Black and White. Clear as the Desert Sky.
[snipped}
Just my snobbish, self-righteous opinion.

I'm sorry, that is just too elitist an attitude for me, Dan. Have you got the gold chain and diamond pinkie-ring bling to go with that? There are some proletarian, uncouth, savage-hardhat and/or starving-student types who have joined the PCA with a $500 924 and driven the wheels off the thing, having a great time, while being fun to be around in the process. Do we have to be "exclusive" or "privileged" or "successful" to enjoy the marque and each other's company?

What happened to "It's not the cars, it's the people?"

TT

[Kim Crosser]

Kim, with all due respect..

"...with all due respect..." - were you also watching "Two and a Half Men" last night? ("With all due respect, you're a pathetic loser. What's the matter? I said - 'With all due respect.' ")

Yep. The Stadium rental is generally less than 1/2 the actual cost of each event. the AX events really cost around $4500-$5000 each when you factor in all of the related expenses (beverages, ice, port-a-potties, truck/gas, trailer storage, trailer insurance, annual awards, daily awards, Motorsport.reg/credit card fees, timing team bribes, extinguisher refill/replacement, timing equipment repair/replacement, radios/vests/holsters/PA. There can be another $500 for K-rail moving in the SE lot, we pay Zone 8 fees for everyone when we host a Zone 8 event, and truck rental can run an extra $50+ if we have to pick it up early/leave it late, but generally it falls in that range.

7% isn't too bad, but it looks like our total "net income" from AX in 2009 was down to around 1.9%. I think you can beat that with a 6-month CD, even in this market...

Of course, if we do get rained out completely (before starting the event), even though the Stadium will refund/credit our payment, a lot of our costs would still apply (port-a-potty rental, truck/gas, ice), so one rained out event could actually put us negative for the year.

Anyway, where else can you spend all day shredding a few hundred $$ in tires and brakes (and maybe break a half-shaft as well ) for only $50? (Plus towing charges, of course!)

[LUCKY DAVE]

Exclusive? Yes. Privileged? Sure. It's the reward of hard work, dedication to earned success, and the sense of earning what you worked so hard for. So: Porsche Club event? Porsche cars. Period. Black and White. Clear as the Desert Sky.

There are a (very) few guys with that attitude around my (or any) marina. Some places are infected worse than others.
Being able to afford an expensive boat doesn't give you hard won experience or make you a respected mariner, and they (the gold chain and chest toupee "Don't you know how important I am?" crowd) are laughed at by the rest of us. That kind of fake-o important-because-I'm-rich attitude is why I resigned from the San Diego Yacht Club even though I grew up there and own a larger yacht than 99% of the members.
No one has more fun, or is a more valuable member than a guy in a $500 924 no matter how much they can spend on hardware. And no one has more fun than that guy in the beater. Probably less.
You can't buy personality.

[gulf911]

Ouch... Me thinks Dan C may have layed on that grenade he threw in...

I will admit this is the kind of elitist attitude that has no place here IMHO, besides dont you have to be fast to be elitist??
I say come one come all if they abide by the rules and it doesn't dispose any PCA member so what? I don't mind throwing a whoopin to other makes anyway...

[325racer]

We could do the following:

- Kick them out if they are too fast and start beating too many of the p-cars………

I take Offense to this comment, mainly because I would most like be getting Kicked out.

http://results.pcasdr.org/event_overall.php?event_date=2010-02-13&database=&time_format=0#1:19.79-6041

For me this year has not gone as I had hoped. I intended to do more PCA events, so I went on a hunt to find someone to co-drive with. I was able to find someone willing, we did the first event, found some issues with the car. The owner decided to do repairs, so I drove my "Not so Street Legal" BMW to the 2nd event. As the results above show, was 5th fastest overall. I had a great time and intended to come to more events. Well, being heavily involved with BMWCCA and Life, I have not been able to make any more events.

Later in the year I may attend an event or two, but will again try to find a co-drive or bring my other X car, 91 Nissan Sentra SE-R, which I can only guess would fall into the "Not Classy enough" catagory. However, I know I could easily place Mid Pack overall with it on street tires.

So back on topic, what we do over at BMWCCA is this.

During Pre-Reg, we specify a number of X car. 10 in winter, 20 in summer. We rarely hit 20, but the 10 sometimes fills up.
Day of the event we go first come first served up to our entry limit. So if 10 X cars are the first to show up and 10 BMWs show up later, guess what, To bad BMWs, you shoulda woke up earlier.

One difference is that BMW does require all entrants be a member, PRIOR to the event, which is easier to do since you don't have to Own a BMW to join BMWCCA.

How the X cars integrate in the event, exactly the same as any other car, they do tech, get the same instruction everyone else would, have to pass the same sound rules the BMW's do.

[ttweed]

We could do the following:
- Kick them out if they are too fast and start beating too many of the p-cars………

I take Offense to this comment, mainly because I would most like be getting Kicked out.

I sure hope you caught the sarcastic smilie after Adam's statement above, Matt, because guys like you and Bob Plante are the ones we need to attract to our events in this recession, regardless of what you are driving. As long as it is safe (can pass tech) and is not too loud (can pass sound regs), I don't think we should be discriminating by "class" of car. It should mostly be about the driver, and you have the kind of experience that could meld in easily with our group. You shouldn't have to be Jensen Button in his Bugatti Veyron to run with us (although that would be cool!)

I ran with the BMW group in my 911 a couple or three times back in 2002-3 or so, and had a fine experience. I had to line up at the gate by 5:30 AM to make sure I would get in, and they wanted me to have an instructor all day, but after I explained that I had been instructing with PCA already for years, they had me do a checkout ride with their CDI. After one lap he got out and said I was good to go. I ended up getting TTOD at one event, although they would only give me the "fastest X-car" award (still got the trophy!)

TT

[Gary Burch]

Some of the views expressed here remind me of my hesitation to even join the Porsche Club.

Times are tough, even for Porsche owners, well some of us. So the "We'll pay more to be exclusive" chant doesn't work for me. If it takes X-cars to keep us going then that's fine. I don't get bummed out by a Neon parked next to me. If the X-driver passes CDI scrutiny, and the car passes tech, let 'em run.

We don't need an AX Tea Party attitude.

[Dan Chambers]

I'm sorry, that is just too elitist an attitude for me, Dan. Have you got the gold chain and diamond pinkie-ring bling to go with that? There are some proletarian, uncouth, savage-hardhat and/or starving-student types who have joined the PCA with a $500 924 and driven the wheels off the thing, having a great time, while being fun to be around in the process. Do we have to be "exclusive" or "privileged" or "successful" to enjoy the marque and each other's company?

What happened to "It's not the cars, it's the people?"

Ouch... Me thinks Dan C may have layed on that grenade he threw in...

I will admit this is the kind of elitist attitude that has no place here IMHO, besides dont you have to be fast to be elitist??
I say come one come all if they abide by the rules and it doesn't dispose any PCA member so what? I don't mind throwing a whoopin to other makes anyway...

Well, I see my comments have elicited the thought processes. That's why I called it "a grenade." I'm glad it got folks thinking.

Unfortunately, the message wasn't quite delivered as clearly as could be done, and the potential for misinterpretation appears to have reared its ugly head ... not to mention name-calling and veiled insults ("elitist"? "...gold chain and diamond pinkie-ring bling..."? Really, Tom? Wow.).

That's okay, comes with the territory. If you folks want to label me or think I'm "too elitist" ... especially those who have worked with me over the years in various volunteer efforts ... well that's a shame. I just like Porsches. I guess that's all I should have said. (I waited 22 years to be able to afford my first Porsche. I wear a hardhat for work. I am that "uncouth, savage-hardhat" that you mention, Tom.) That's all I should have said. My message was poorly delivered, understandably misunderstood. I guess I'll have to work on better communication skills.

Dan makes a perfect observation: "...if they abide by the rules..." See point #2 that I made in my previous post. The by-laws of SDR allow for variations to the Porsche-only participation rule as outlined in the National rules for membership. If some folks don't like that rule, it can be changed.

See you all down the road. Cheers!