How do you down shift when multiple gears need to be dropped

[ttweed]

I am failing to see what HS video has to do with our discussion?

I think the only relevance to this thread would be that Hans seems to favor the "downshift thru each gear" technique instead of skipping some. Unlike a sequential box, it is possible to skip gears with a Hewland dog box while downshifting, but Hans does not. Hans ain't likely to be voting in the poll, though, or throwing his comments out here! Many people do use the clutch for downshifts with those dog boxes, however (I always did.) It is an easier and smoother way to unload the gears while decelerating than to give the throttle a slight blip, I think, and results in less wear on the dog rings if your timing is off.

BTW, I voted in the poll, here, but my comments on the subject are in the other thread that instigated the poll. The short of it is my personal preference is to always go thru every gear on the way down, but that is just habit, to avoid having to think too much while shifting and rev matching. It is just automatic for me. I don't want to look at the instruments or do any math, I just listen to the engine as it winds down and rev match by ear thru each gear. There are probably good arguments for saving wear and tear on the clutch and tranny by skipping gears, but it just doesn't feel right to me to leave it in fifth while I brake all the way down, then shift to second when I'm going slow enough. Call me "stuck in the mud" but old habits die hard.

TT

[kary]

I agree Tom, I would shift sequentially down if I had HS's car and transmission, but I do not so I try and avoid the wear and tear and the mistakes in all though gear shifts on the way down.

In the end it is really personal preference though I think with my brakes I make better use of the brakes by not shifting all those other gears while braking. This is particularly apparent at the speedway when folks in front of me are rowing down the gears and I am running up the back of them coming into trun 3.

This has been an interesting thread, nice to see for a change!

[ttweed]

Kary-

The wording for choice number 2 isn't really very precise, either, is it? You don't really "go directly to the gear desired" (i.e. at the beginning of the brake zone) and then "slow the car to speed that matches that gear" do you? That would mean you have the clutch depressed for the entire brake zone, with the car in the lower gear the whole time, until you can let the clutch out. I presume that you are doing it as you described previously--leaving the car in 5th as you threshold brake, and only doing the clutching and gear selection after you have slowed the car, no?

It is a bit misleading the way it is worded.

TT

[kary]

Tom, yes that is correct, the way I described it before. Difficult to put that all into a poll selection. I assumed that folks use a clutch though no matter which process they use.

[Jackie C]

Maybe this is just because I'm fairly new at this, but for me, it depends on the corner...Considering I blew a synchro on a misshift at T2(? that 90 degree left after the oval) at Speedway last year speaks for my novice ability!

[martinreinhardt]

I just got of the phone with my dad (different family name) who is a top F3000 driver in the Interserie and EuroBoss2004. I asked him what he thinks about skipping rears.

He said: Gearboxes are not designed to skip gears and he doubts that it would be any faster by skipping gears. Even if you don't over-rev the engine by not matching the correct speed and rev to the gear; on the long run the gearbox and engine will suffer a lot more by skipping gears. Skipping gears is not common practice.

Since there doesn't appear a right or wrong way of doing I will keep using the method I am most comfortable with and follow my dads recommendations.

[martinreinhardt]

Hmm, I just remembered that I did break the gearbox of my Boxster a couple years ago even by downshifting thru every gear. I guess there goes that theory

[Mike]

He said: Gearboxes are not designed to skip gears.

True for sequential boxes though does this apply to H pattern boxes? If so why?

[Bob Gagnon]

To me it all depends on driver skill.

If you are a klutz like me and in the heat of the moment shift from 5th to 2nd when the gear speeds are too great thereby wearing out the syncros then let out the clutch too quickly and over rev the engine and at the same time upset the car, this is *not* the way to go.

Going down through the gears keeps the driver honest and prevents these mistakes thereby saving engine and gearbox wear.

Having said that, if a driver is skilled enough to shift from 2nd to 5th and time things so the shift is made at the precise moment when gear speeds are not too great and then release the clutch at the precise moment when the engine is not over reved then this is *really* the best way.

[Jad]

To me it all depends on driver skill.

If you are a klutz like me and in the heat of the moment shift from 5th to 2nd when the gear speeds are too great thereby wearing out the syncros then let out the clutch too quickly and over rev the engine and at the same time upset the car, this is *not* the way to go.

Going down through the gears keeps the driver honest and prevents these mistakes thereby saving engine and gearbox wear.

Having said that, if a driver is skilled enough to shift from 2nd to 5th and time things so the shift is made at the precise moment when gear speeds are not too great and then release the clutch at the precise moment when the engine is not over reved then this is *really* the best way.

I would argue, that if you truly shift properly, there is effectively zero wear using either method, so to me it seems done perfectly, both methods yield the same result in braking and wear. Thus, for me, the reduced chance of damage to engine and tranny make the rowing method the one I use, and like TT, have no plans on changing until a good argument is made for skipping.

In regards to the HS video,
Scared me just watching that much speed, with idiots on the track and no run-outs.

[kary]

Thus, for me, the reduced chance of damage to engine and tranny make the rowing method the one I use, and like TT, have no plans on changing until a good argument is made for skipping.

Jad, how about folks passing you in the braking zone. Would that be a good reason?

[Jad]

If it ever happens, I will let you know

[kary]

If it ever happens, I will let you know

Given our rules in DE/TT it probably will not, but maybe we can bend them a little in this next event

[Mike]

Thus, for me, the reduced chance of damage to engine and tranny make the rowing method the one I use, and like TT, have no plans on changing until a good argument is made for skipping.

Jad, how about folks passing you in the braking zone. Would that be a good reason?

Not to dog pile on...

From my single 5/2 down shift point of view downshifting 5/4/3/2 would increase drive train wear, the chance for drive train damage and if poorly executed compromise car control. Imho any shift (up or down) increases the possibility of drive train damage.

Syncros of gears skipped are saved.
Shifts deleted are never mis-shifted.
More constistant brake pedal pressure.

With a 5 speed in reality how many turns are suited to skipping gears, maybe a couple in all of So Cal?

The HS video is awesome! :bowdown:

[Jad]

Good points, so it comes down to 3 easy downshifts vs 1 difficult downshift.

Amazingly, looks like complete consesus will not be reached on this topic, now thats something different on this forum....NOT

Interesting how such different, styles, cars and techniques can lead to virtually the same result in the end