Why aren't you autocrossing? A chance to say why.

[ttweed]

Interesting thread. I would like to throw out some comments even though I am not one of the ones who have quit AX'ing, I have actually gone the other way and quit time trialing because of the expense.

1) The autocross series has been successful in enlisting people to track their cars and move on to DE, TT or Road Racing events - but people leave and don't come back.
2) The autocross series is seen as less "bang for the buck" in terms of track time once people leave it for the other events
4) The economy has taken a toll on autocross as a venue for disposable income due to associated costs (helmets, harnesses, tires, service intervals, etc.) seemingly more than the entry fee.

These 3 all seem to be related, so I changed the order for my reply. In my personal case, I started autocrossing with the club in 1997 and moved to DE and TT events as quickly as possible, but never quit AX'ing. I wanted and needed all the seat time I could get at the time. I ran the TT series for 5 years, as well as every DE and AX I could, including the Zone 8 series, SCCA events, BMW club events, and private track days with several other groups at tracks we don't run. I took the VARA racing school at Buttonwillow in 1999 with Lewis Wise and Andy Galecke but never went club racing--I was spending all the money I could afford already! As Dan said, a TT weekend is really $1000+, if you include entry, fuel, travel, lodging, and amortize tire/brake/maintenance costs over the season into the equation. When I retired, this kind of discretionary income was no longer available for me, even though the economy had not tanked yet in 2006. It's true that you get more seat time at a TT than an autox, but a whole season of autox does not cost as much as one single TT event--10 entries at $50 equals $500, and I can get through the whole year with one set of tires, and much less wear and tear on the car. Plus I don't have to travel so far--I can run for the day and go home and sleep in my own bed at night.

For the last few years, I have only run the one-day DE events at the Q and at Coronado, because they were local, and I signed up for one day at Chuckwalla just to see and drive a new track. There's no way I would run a whole TT series again in my current situation, it's just too expensive. I am getting too old and don't have the bucks, desire or energy to spend a whole bunch of weekends at the track any more. More appealing to me would be running maybe a couple or three single-day events a year, especially at tracks I have never been to yet. I like the challenge of learning a new track and figuring out how to go fast on it, which is part of the reason that AX appeals to me still. If the club put on a DE at the Q, I would probably be interested, if I could get my track car quiet enough, or better yet, maybe an event at Pomona, like GPR/SGR and POC are doing? That's not too bad a drive, and the sound restrictions are more liberal than the Q. For around $100 for a day, it would be more accessible for more people.

3) The tarmac is a concern to some, particularly when compared to a dedicated open track.

Yes, but a big track event has a much higher chance of damage occurring in off-track excursions and contact with fixed objects at higher speeds.

5) One person mentioned age and health issues compromise their athleticism as required for corner working and I have to ring in here myself on that - so some older folks may be leaving for that.

I'm not there yet, I can still shag cones, but I know that I am sort of heading down that path myself. Jerry Sturm, who was my model and mentor when I was first driving with the club, first quit time trialing, and then finally gave up on AX'ing too and hung up his driving shoes last year. You can't beat back that aging thing, no matter how hard you try...

How do we get more new people into AX?

Our biggest recruiting tool has always been the PDS, IMHO. About 25% of those drivers come back out for another AX experience after the school, from what I have heard in years past. Some don't come back, some progress into big track events, some become avid AX'ers. It's a shame we aren't doing a school this fall when we are in the midst of this attendance quandary.

That's my $0.02, and worth everything you paid for it.
TT

[ScandinavianFlick]

In my opinion, the biggest issue with the current autocross program is its inability to inspire obsession in new attendees. I see a lot of drivers who show up for one, and then return sporadically, maybe a total of twice in six months. Contrast this with the club's "autocross inner circle", the people who shape the events and attend every month without fail, and you see that that core is diminishing and not being replenished.

Autocross should be a social experience. Yes, the competition is the core of the event. But when you're spending 9 hours in a parking lot, and driving 15 of them, socialization with others is the only (and best) way to pass time. I've met many new people whos company I enjoy (and skills I admire and attempt to learn from) in my eight months as an autocross regular. Unfortunately, this didn't really occur until the Great X-Car Debate brought attention and interest to X-Car drivers, and drew those drivers into the politics and policy of the club.

The sad fact is that the parking layout in the pits tells you everything you need to know about the cliqueish nature of the events currently. You see three major groups- Classic 911s, Spec/Other 944s, and Hondas. People in these clusters tend to hang out there, converse with the same people, and more or less ignore everyone else.

They have, in effect, forgotten that WE ARE ALL CAR PEOPLE. Yes, one 914, Miata or Boxster may look much like another. If you spend the time to meet the wners, however, you discover that everyone brings something different, technically interesting, and often innovative to the table. We can all learn from each other, and I think people would become more deeply engrossed if more of a sense of shared gearheadedness was put forth.

(to qualify, i'm as guilty of this as anyone- i tend to camp in the honda pit, and it's been too long since i've tlaked to someone about how they built their car.)

(also a big thanks to Jackie, who was the first person to really make me feel welcome at your events.)

[Kim Crosser]

Pls correct me if my math is bad but another $5.00 @80 drivers buys 4 corner workers.... NASCAR track?

Good point, Ralph. I used the $400 that I believe we paid Billy Wampler's team for a DE event, which was only 4 workers. If we had a full West lot event with our usual 9-10 minimum corners, that would probably be more like $900-$1000.
Also - please keep in mind that the paid corner workers I have seen do NOT run around resetting cones. They are safety workers/flaggers. Can we even find a crew that will work 8 hours running and resetting cones? How many paid workers would it take to get the cones set up as fast as we do now? 12+? That would be around $1200+ for a paid crew, which would be more like $15/driver at 80 drivers.
(And a big DOH! from me for the previous math error... corrected in previous post - $400/80 = $5, not $50. That is what happens when you are trying to do 3-4 things at once.)

Anyway, my post was really to point out that the AX crew is doing a great job getting the maximum laps out of the Q. Yes, if we raised the rates to $75+ per driver, we could probably limit attendance to 80 and get more laps. Since this post is really about why aren't there more people autocrossing, dropping the attendance limit doesn't seem to fit.

[Sawfish]

"The sad fact is that the parking layout in the pits tells you everything you need to know about the cliqueish nature of the events currently. You see three major groups- Classic 911s, Spec/Other 944s, and Hondas. People in these clusters tend to hang out there, converse with the same people, and more or less ignore everyone else."

When I read this I was pretty bummed out. I am sad to hear that somebody has had this experience. I started two years ago with a beat up 914 I bought off craigslist for $2500 bucks since then I have met so many genuine kind and interesting people. True I do park next to the same guys each week because they are my friends(who were total strangers 2 years ago) but there's a 914 sandwiched between a 911 and a 996 alongside another 914. Some of the nicest folks you'll ever meet. Next AX you come park by me. My wife brings fresh baked goods to each AX its a ritual dont miss out . I love to take my grandson around each month and check out all the cars with him for me it is so much more than the cars, meeting cool folks from every aspect of life. sharing stories giving compliments on smooth laps and the good natured ribbing that comes with competition.

Hope to see you next time
Chris
#780

[Rsylvestri]

If my math is correct, we get about 260 minutes of track time per Time Trials. For an AX you get around 21 minutes and get to corner work
It takes about 1.3-1.5 years to equal the seat time for an AX as opposed to ONE Time Trial.
OK now start figuring the the costs for fuel (up & back to the Q and laps) tires, food, ect.. for 12+ AX events.
Sure you don't have the cost hitting you all at once but look at the experiance, seat time at the big tracks.
I still wish I could do more AX events with SDR, but trying to do all the TT's and some POC events it's hard to get my better half on board with this program..$$$
I guess in the end it's a matter of new members or the dreaded X class being expanded
...Rick

[993Panzer]

I started AX in 2001 just after buying by 993. My car like me has gone through some modifications and improvements. Like most of us the car has improved more than the driver. The car is now no longer legal at the Q. Too loud. I spend my fun car money on racing weekends where I get to drive wheel to wheel with other Porsche enthusiasts. I also have a commitment as a CDI that requires my presence at several track weekends a year. I have only done one TT within the last two years. That was this year at Streets of Willow with Z8 PCA. It was as much fun as any TT I ever did. Chatting with everyone and hanging out at the Corwins for dinner is always a great time. I have moved on to a level I enjoy (Racing) and takes most of my free time and money. I stop down to the Q every once in a while to see who is around that I know. There are a lot of new faces which is good for the club. The last AX I did was 2 years ago to check out my muffler for Laguna Seca's 92 dB limit. It was a lot of fun and I even made it into the top 10 (2nd or 3rd actually). We lose people from AX because people lose interest, go on to other levels of driving events or just life, it gets in the way sometimes. Some people come back, most don't. We need to keep spreading the news of what a great group of people are in the San Diego Region of PCA. I'm really looking forward to our presence at the Auto show at the San Diego Convention Center in Dec. This will be a huge event for the club. Stop by and support your club.

[Jad]

In my opinion, the biggest issue with the current autocross program is its inability to inspire obsession in new attendees. I see a lot of drivers who show up for one, and then return sporadically, maybe a total of twice in six months. Contrast this with the club's "autocross inner circle", the people who shape the events and attend every month without fail, and you see that that core is diminishing and not being replenished.

Autocross should be a social experience. Yes, the competition is the core of the event. But when you're spending 9 hours in a parking lot, and driving 15 of them, socialization with others is the only (and best) way to pass time. I've met many new people whos company I enjoy (and skills I admire and attempt to learn from) in my eight months as an autocross regular. Unfortunately, this didn't really occur until the Great X-Car Debate brought attention and interest to X-Car drivers, and drew those drivers into the politics and policy of the club.

The sad fact is that the parking layout in the pits tells you everything you need to know about the cliqueish nature of the events currently. You see three major groups- Classic 911s, Spec/Other 944s, and Hondas. People in these clusters tend to hang out there, converse with the same people, and more or less ignore everyone else.

They have, in effect, forgotten that WE ARE ALL CAR PEOPLE. Yes, one 914, Miata or Boxster may look much like another. If you spend the time to meet the wners, however, you discover that everyone brings something different, technically interesting, and often innovative to the table. We can all learn from each other, and I think people would become more deeply engrossed if more of a sense of shared gearheadedness was put forth.

(to qualify, i'm as guilty of this as anyone- i tend to camp in the honda pit, and it's been too long since i've tlaked to someone about how they built their car.)

(also a big thanks to Jackie, who was the first person to really make me feel welcome at your events.)

You have some good points, but I have to disagree with some as well. I have been doing this for almost 20 years, and have been in the "inner circle" for most of it. Unfortunately, I think the obsession part is more of a personality (disorder ) thing than an event issue. Probably 10-20% or so of people will join in enthusiastically, the others will follow. So, the more new people, the more inner circle, whether it is autoracing or knitting.

Also, the clusters have always been there as well. The "debates" on whether air cooler or water cooled was better use to get pretty intense (By the way, water cooled won ), but that is half the fun and comraderee. It is fun beating the guy in the slow, air cooled car, or Miata, or Honda, and then giving each other grief over a beer in the pits. The key is to be sure to keep the ribbing good natured, but BE SURE to do it. There are classic examples (OK, Dan insert Barbie video below, it has been six months ) of where the air cooled inner circle mocked me, but that is what made the weekend way more fun.

The major issue for me that has hurt AX is the classes. Everyone whined that their class was unfair and got their own class. Once everyone had their own class, there was no reason to show up to every event as you won your class and it was not exciting. When I was battling with 3-4 people for the season championship AND at every autocross for a class win, there was no way I would miss an event and be done for the season. I think it is this sense of competition that has been lost and needs to be re-ignited to increase attendance.

[MR LIPP]

You missed two options:
6. Don't want to deal with sound meter

7. All of the above


I choose #7

[Bob Gagnon]

Jad wrote: The major issue for me that has hurt AX is the classes. Everyone whined that their class was unfair and got their own class. Once everyone had their own class, there was no reason to show up to every event as you won your class and it was not exciting. When I was battling with 3-4 people for the season championship AND at every autocross for a class win, there was no way I would miss an event and be done for the season. I think it is this sense of competition that has been lost and needs to be re-ignited to increase attendance.

Very interesting point, I did not know one could "win" a class without competition. To me having a benchmark driver(s) in my class to compare myself and compete against makes the whole thing, particularly after a car modification, and I would be less likely to return if that did not exist.

[mrondeau]

Also, the clusters have always been there as well. The "debates" on whether air cooler or water cooled was better use to get pretty intense (By the way, water cooled won ), but that is half the fun and comraderee. It is fun beating the guy in the slow, air cooled car, or Miata, or Honda, and then giving each other grief over a beer in the pits. The key is to be sure to keep the ribbing good natured, but BE SURE to do it. There are classic examples (OK, Dan insert Barbie video below, it has been six months ) of where the air cooled inner circle mocked me, but that is what made the weekend way more fun.

http://youtu.be/5tXClMuePc0

I'm just here to help.

[RETII]

A vido is worth 1001 words

[RETII]

So is spell check

[John Straub]

Thanks Mark...I needed to see that again after Jad's comment about air cooled cars.

John

[LUCKY DAVE]

My situation is the opposite of most, I auto cross because after a looong motorcycle racing career, I don't want to hassle with the endless traveling to races anymore. (burnt out, I guess, no more 35 weekends a year traveling to Willow or Sears or Laguna (or Daytona or Elkhart lake or Laconia or Portland, etc) Thursay or Friday night and back Sunday night....yippee!)
AX is so easy, I can drive the car there with minimal pit equipment that fits in the back, simply drive the 20 miles home at the end of the day, and be there in time for dinner
Car maintenance can be a "when I get around to it" kind of thing too.
Sure, I don't get as much seat time, but I don't have to perform sawzall surgery on my car to install a full cage either. With thousands of laps around big willow under my belt, and knowing how hard I go when I see "the red mist" I refuse to drive there, or at any other fast tracks with only a race roll bar. My car sure would be more fun to drive without all the extra weight though........
There's also the issue of time commitment away from my family, boats and motorcycles.

[eric9144]

I'll play...

Disappeared for years due to the craziness of life and a perceived 'lack of time' to keep my car up to snuff for AX, got married, had some kids, got caught up playing with some of my other toys...car sat tucked under a cover in the garage, pulled out every couple weeks to tear up a local canyon, then tucked back in...

I needed parts to try and be competitive--brake setup, extra set of wheels for some sticky tires, etc....I always felt like in the old class system I was the little fish in terms of points against the rest of my class. I'm still compiling parts to get back to it, but that involved my insane quest for some 'unicorn' brake parts (914/6 rear calipers for example) to get my car where I felt it needed to be to actually be competitive...Still not totally there, but very close...there's going to be an interesting visit to Steve Grosekemper in the very near future...Until then I'm still not at the AX's

I always had a great time and found the SD members to be more than welcoming! I did recently run across an old member on a 914 forum who was very bitter at the SD crowd and somehow felt he'd been wronged although he'd offer no details as to why, so there are people out there on that end of the spectrum too...

Truth be told, I really miss it, can't wait to get back to it, miss the cars, the people and the driving!