Final Zone 8 proposals

[Red Rooster]

.....This is all supposed to be for fun, anyway, and though we are competitive by nature, I think the old adage "winning or losing is not important, it's how you play the game" comes to mind. I know this is going to be a big comfort to JR, once he gets out of jail for that convenience store thing. :

..... .....and I shrug it off when I loose a race in my sailboat too...

.....Maybe Christy won't run in the TT series and Anthony DiLanzo won't show up all the time, and no one else has absorbed Mark's sage advice and is currently building another killer Carrera as we speak, and one of you guys can still win next year!

Maybe Christy won't get the TT bug...but owning a car like that....hard to imagine!! I think it's just a matter time...and probably not much....before curiosity gets the best of her and she gets a hankering to see what her car can really do

...and Anthony is in AR1 (thank goodness...)...hi compression 3.4L with throttle bodies and a lot of other goodies.

maybe the social stigma that's now attached to having a 3.6L AM car will dissuade others from building more? I mean who would want Dan,Curt & I glaring at you all day long

Here's a cute one that typlifies the between run session pit activites of the AM gang next year if any 3.6L cars are in the class:

[ttweed]

Then who makes the decision to not forward the proposal for acceptance?

My understanding of the process is that the Rules Committee evaluates the proposals and decides which of them to forward to the Zone Presidents for a vote. If the RC does not understand a proposal or thinks it is inappropriate, it does not get forwarded.

We have no one to blame but ourselves for this predicament. If we want to make sure our proposals are understood and accepted, we need to take a more active role in the process, including submitting and commenting on proposals and/or revising the rules change process to include other methods of input and feedback, apparently. The most logical and powerful step would be volunteering to be a part of the process and spending the thankless time that the current volunteer staff contributes, only to open yourself up to the kind of whinging we are currently dishing out, combined with accusations of self-interest when we fix everything in AM to our advantage.

TT

[ttweed]

Maybe Christy won't get the TT bug...but owning a car like that....hard to imagine!! I think it's just a matter time...and probably not much....

Bad news, JR, I heard from Jackie that Christy plans to run the whole TT series next year in the Carrera.

TT

[ttweed]

That is EXACTLY what we are saying to allow, from a 2.7, 2.8, 2.9L car up to Toms 3.4L car. Anything above 3.4L is in a different class.

This is an interesting solution, Curt. Since AR has been broken into two classes, it is possible we could have an AM1 and AM2 as well, with engines up to 3.4 in the first and anything above in the second, perhaps with different weight limits or something. I would have to think about that more deeply, but at first blush it sounds like a stop-gap measure that would not address the full range of the problem as thoroughly as my previous classing suggestion.

We could also just adopt the Parade rules for autox, but that would be a BIG change for everyone, and our current rules apply to both TT and Autox. Do we then adopt the Club Racing GCRs for TTs? Hmmmm...my brain is beginning to hurt. I have to stop now....

TT

[Red Rooster]

......Bad news, JR, I heard from Jackie that Christy plans to run the whole TT series next year in the Carrera.

I had a feeling she would. That's great for her , she will really get the chance to learn the limits of her car and have a ton 'o fun doing it, but then again, I wonder how that car will affect AM class participation if one knows it will be there at every event...?

We all know how much money it takes to be in that first practice session on Saterday... and it can become more difficult to justify if one feels the best they can do is bring their knife to a gun fight.

[Curt]

Look, enough of this we didn't do anything to fix it so it's our fault. Enough of this we just sat around and did nothing.

Here's is one of the many exchanges that has gone on in this forum and in person to LEAD US TO BELIEVE that our issue was known, agreed with in priciple and was going to be addressed. This is why we are ALL up in arms about this:

Here's the thread, read the first 3 posts:


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Steve Grosekemper
Admin
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Zone 8 Rules proposal deadline July 31st!


Just letting you all know that you have until July 31st to submit rule change proposals.

There are some truly brilliantly written proposals this year especially targeted at evening out the David and Goliath issue in AM.

http://www.pca.org/zone8/rules/2006/AX- ... posals.pdf

Got an opinion?

Send it to the Zone-8 webmaster and he will post them on the site.

webmaster@zone8.org

Steve Grosekemper
PCASDR Rules Chair

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Curt
Time Trialer

Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am Post subject:

I have a surprisingly unwordy fix for the David vs. Goliath mess in AM.

Reinstate the HM class.

There. Four words. Fixed!

By the way, I wouldn't call it a David vs. Goliath situation in the AM class. David WON that confrontation. Or are you saying we can sling rocks at the Kinninger car if he shows up?

Sweet!------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Steve Grosekemper
Admin
Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject:

How is that going to fix having a 3.6 914 OR 911T in AM curt.

If you read all the rules you will see that this goes along way to correct this problem. The HM issue would keep a few cars out of your class but only a small percentage. This fixes the problem for all, not just you.

I know, I know... It's all abut you!!
_________________
Steve Grosekemper
97AR 914-6 (Track-getting new motor)
'83 911SC Cab (Driver)
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[Dan Chambers]

This is a very interesting post.... The rules state this is legal, so how can it be unfair Dan??

Dan, that would be because the rules themselves are not reflective of the true nature between the cars. By the standard of the rules, Tom's actions are fair. But ... are the rules themselves fair? Do they represent the true nature and purpose of the car classes? I don't think so.

So much so, you would move down in class to avoid it? What happened to your "don't worry about the points, just shut up and drive position"?? Maybe I misunderstood? , was this only if it didn't affect you?....

I would move to any class where the cars are more equal, with no "tweeking" for other cars of an advantaged build to come in and anihilate the class. So, as I mentioned earlier, another look at how the National car clasification system would go a long way in SDR and Zone 8 rules. So, I just shut up and drive. Haven't seen you or Tom at Autocrosses lately. Seems your driving less and posting on the forum more.

As to the rules affecting me. Yes, the rules are equally effectin everyone, including me, and I accept them until I know I can change them. And....I'm still driving ...are you - Dan?

Tom: you think I'm off base for finding similaritiy between steroids and purpose buitl cars? Well, it's a free country. You can think what you want. I can think what I want. That you dont' like the comparison to steroids and other less-than-sportsmanlike conduct isn't too terribly surprising to me. Afterall, you're the guy building the car that is going to sweep all the cars in a class it isn't intended for. I'm not surprised you might be a little put off. But, you chose to build the car. Now, there's fall-out in the class you're going to invade. Deal with it. And good luck. I'll have a cold beer waiting for you at the end of the day. It's just a car club, afterall is said and done.

[Curt]

Dan C,
At least half of your above post is nearly identical to the way we feel in AM about the rules allowing the 3.6 cars. It seems like you are making OUR argument and you talk about moving down in class, like we all talked about. But when it was our issue, there was no support from you, just a "do what Jae does and have fun".

I see your point about Toms car but disagree with it. I don't blame Mark K. for building class annihilating cars even though it's my class he's whooping up on. That's his gig. My experience with Tom is of a complete stand-up guy who has been helping this club since before I started running in 1999. He has an incredible grasp on the rules and is trying to prove his point about the classes by showing that they are messed up.

His written proposals have been ignored and he has had two cars he owns reclassified or made obsolete by a reclassifying in the last two years. Instead of going up on the Tram tracks and snipering at the next event he's spending plenty of money to prove his point on the screw-ups in reclassifying.

[gulf911]

Dan, that would be because the rules themselves are not reflective of the true nature between the cars. By the standard of the rules, Tom's actions are fair. But ... are the rules themselves fair? Do they represent the true nature and purpose of the car classes? I don't think so.

Dan, have you not been reading the thread you chimed in on and told us to just shut up and drive?? Funny how rules can change ones opinion when it affects them hey Dan? Also, thanks for pointing out what we in AM are complaining about.

I would move to any class where the cars are more equal, with no "tweeking" for other cars of an advantaged build to come in and anihilate the class. So, I just shut up and drive. Haven't seen you or Tom at Autocrosses lately. Seems your driving less and posting on the forum more.

Again thank you for making our point. By the way, I support the TT series mainly because my car is better setup for that rather that the rough parking lot, which chews tires up quickly. Is that all you can come up with? hmmm...you seem to know something I don't...perhaps you can tell me where I can move to get away from the advantaged build cars in AM??

As to the rules affecting me. Yes, the rules are equally effectin everyone, including me, and I accept them until I know I can change them. And....I'm still driving ...are you - Dan?

Please Dan, your embarrasing yourself. I've been driving in this club longer than you. Accepting the rules doesn't include moving to another class.

Tom: you think I'm off base for finding similaritiy between steroids and purpose buitl cars? Well, it's a free country. You can think what you want. I can think what I want. That you dont' like the comparison to steroids and other less-than-sportsmanlike conduct isn't too terribly surprising to me. Afterall, you're the guy building the car that is going to sweep all the cars in a class it isn't intended for.

You talking about AM Dan??...

I'm done with the pissing contest Dan... Your statement to us to just "Shut up and drive and not worry about the points" , and then your 180 degree reversal after Tom's comments, has blown up in your face. Suddenly, taking advantage of the rules is unsportsmanlike when it affects you, but the AM guys should just suck it up?
Curt has shown using posts on this forum how we were lead to believe the issue was known about and taken care of , it didn't happen, as a matter of fact it appears its easier for a 3.6 to get in now. I don't blame Steve at all , I believe he did what he could to help and I thank him for that. However, if I find out he is maintaining Christy's car.. . and yes Steve I am kidding.

[lowyder993s]

......Bad news, JR, I heard from Jackie that Christy plans to run the whole TT series next year in the Carrera.

I had a feeling she would. That's great for her , she will really get the chance to learn the limits of her car and have a ton 'o fun doing it, but then again, I wonder how that car will affect AM class participation if one knows it will be there at every event...?

We all know how much money it takes to be in that first practice session on Saterday... and it can become more difficult to justify if one feels the best they can do is bring their knife to a gun fight.

This is all a moot point Johnny as I Expect to see you club racing in 07!
You can do this for fun, but CR is where your REAL FRIENDS are at

[Dan Chambers]

Dan A:

Congratulations! No one has ever miss-interpreted my point of view more thoroughly than you on this thread. Great job!

Yes to you Curt, and all the others that said: "Thanks for pointed out what we've been going through in AM class, and talking about on this thread." No kidding, Sherlock! That's why I made the post.

A-la Dan Andrews, Below is a list of the Autocross events Dan A. has attended, and his points standing in 2006.























Nice Driving, Dan!

I feel sorry for you guys. Now, I'm going out for a drive. Good luck AM fellows, you need all the help you can get. And, if you need support in changing the rules to make the cars in AM class more equal, I'll lend all the help you need (hint: check out the National car classification system for Autocross). Action begets change. Make things happen.

Best of luck.

[Gary Burch]

After all of this I guess the only path open to the AM crowd is passive resistance. Stand up and take the beating like a man and hopefully, the people with all that 3.6 power and those big, big tires will feel so bad their conscience will make them change class on their own or come to an agreement to split the class.
So who is going to be Gandhi?

I also appreciate TT's input on this and all club issues. His knowledge of rules and his dedication to the PCASDR makes him the Man. I also don't believe he is on steroids, at least at the present time.

Also, I don't think it is necessary to autocross to complain about the rules, since the Time Trial series uses the same classification system.

Rguarding the Rules Commitee. All volunteer exercises take time, just ask me. But there comes a time when you have to listen to the members and get it right.

[Jad]

Despite the fighting, Dan C. may have come up with a stop gap solution, Dan, Curt and Johnny can run in KM?

Another solution - protest the 3.6l cars. According to the rules, the engine must be moved with ALL accesories and unmodified and I don't recall seeing A/C etc in the cars in order to use the engine swap rule. You may just win a protest and solve the problem if I understand the rules and apply legaleze to them. I may be missing something, but I think that might work?

[gulf911]

Thanks gary, here's to hoping this will happen next year.


As for you Dan, apparently you have to attend autocrosses rather than the same clubs TT series to have a valid complaint about the rules that govern both? I feel sorry for you as well, its unfortunate you are the only one that doesn't see the hipocracy of your statements. Good luck to you.

[Red Rooster]

Despite the fighting, Dan C. may have come up with a stop gap solution, Dan, Curt and Johnny can run in KM?

Another solution - protest the 3.6l cars. According to the rules, the engine must be moved with ALL accesories and unmodified and I don't recall seeing A/C etc in the cars in order to use the engine swap rule. You may just win a protest and solve the problem if I understand the rules and apply legaleze to them. I may be missing something, but I think that might work?

hmmm.... interesting Jad...

Funny thing tho, just suppose we do run in KM.... How nice are you going to be to us when a KP car out does a KM car...?? ...sounds like a set up to me