HOOSIERS?

[ttweed]

Tom, that 'sounds' valid, but I can only think of 1 person running non-DOT tires and maybe 10 who run Hoosiers/710. Of those, many, if not most, are in the middle of the class so a few points won't change a thing for them.

Jad-
Rule changes are for the whole Zone, not just our region. A change from 4 to 9 points for < 50 UTQG tires is a 5 point increase, and for slicks, a change from 6 to 12 represents 6 additional points. That's not just "a few" in my book. There are many people who would be adversely effected and bumped up in class by such a change, and they are not all in SDR.

TT

[gulf911]

As for Ballast Point .... good luck, Dan. The problem you might have: They like to support winners.

I understand now..but you misspelled it , its Whiners...

Oh, winners? Paul , you might be expecting a call from Ballast....

Ok, that was not right at all, totally uncalled for...

[Dan Chambers]

As for Ballast Point .... good luck, Dan. The problem you might have: They like to support winners.

I understand now..but you misspelled it , its Whiners...

Cute, very cute. But hey ... I'm not complaining! I'm not complaining!:roflmao:

[gulf911]

Thanks for having a sense of humor...

[gulf911]

Tom, that 'sounds' valid, but I can only think of 1 person running non-DOT tires and maybe 10 who run Hoosiers/710. Of those, many, if not most, are in the middle of the class so a few points won't change a thing for them.

Jad-
Rule changes are for the whole Zone, not just our region. A change from 4 to 9 points for < 50 UTQG tires is a 5 point increase, and for slicks, a change from 6 to 12 represents 6 additional points. That's not just "a few" in my book. There are many people who would be adversely effected and bumped up in class by such a change, and they are not all in SDR.

TT

Is Jad talking just Stock class? Surely he doesn't mean proposing a global rating/point change over all classes? I , and most all AM, is up against the point max, so that would put me in AR....back with the 3.6's??? Jad, we need to talk...

[Gary Burch]

I like the way you think. BUT... There is one notable problem with 140+, which is that the GT3 and GT2 cars are delivered from the showroom with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, which are 80 treadwear. As delivered, they cannot run in QS/S. I think it is important to let them run in QS. The change in values would allow this, but straight disallowing 139 and below would not.

A GT3 or a GT2 are pretty far away from stock anyway, so what does it matter if they run in QS/S,Q/S or even QP(is there a QP?)

So what we need is a valid rules proposal that will address the tire issue. I personally think it should only effect Stock Class at this point. It is fun running the R-compound, but I had just as much fun on the Azenias. Who cares about the BRI and all that. Is the standard going to be 140, 99, 50?

Speaking of points for tires that put people in class jeopardy,it wasn't long ago the rule was changed to charge 1 point for the Azenias.

[Irksome]

I love sticking my hand in a blender...

I believe current tire point assessment is skewed, but my first pass 'what if?' post may not have the correct values. I also don't really have a particular concern about Stock only, though that was the original intent of this (now very very long) thread. At the risk of being taunted again...

140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 3 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 9 points **
* not allowed in S/S
** not allowed in S/S or S

A GT3 or a GT2 are pretty far away from stock anyway, so what does it matter if they run in QS/S,Q/S or even QP(is there a QP?)

Yes, there is. QS/S => QS => QP => QI => KM => AR1 => AR2

Tom Meissner
1414
aka Irksome

*edit* put my name in so insults can be properly addressed.
*edit 2* my post was eaten by the HTML grue!

[Dan Chambers]

So what we need is a valid rules proposal that will address the tire issue. I personally think it should only effect Stock Class at this point. It is fun running the R-compound, but I had just as much fun on the Azenias. Who cares about the BRI and all that. Is the standard going to be 140, 99, 50?

Well, I think so.

If we go with 140, that eliminates the Toyo's etc. at 100-rating. If we go to ... hmmm ... say ... 99 that let's the Toyo's, at 100-rating just squeek in, but bumps the Hosers ... sorry,I mean Hoosiers .... and V710's, etc. to Prepared. So, S/S can't run below 140 - period, right? Then Stock class to, say, 99 - period? Then, open things up from Prepared onward? Hmmmm. One idea, anyway ...

Or, go 140 for S/S and S, and next year I buy Hankooks, Azenis, etc ... Gosh, cheaper and still fun. Go figure. At least, another idea.

Or, let all tires be allowed in all classes. The heck with it! Open the flood gates and let 'em drive on anything they want! Kaos, Maxwell Smart, Kaos I say! Stock, Schmock! Drive it like you financed it! Fair, Schmair ...give me my 39-cent ribbon!

DC

[Gary Burch]

Dan,

I like the first 2,but, the last suggestion might carry the day...

[cam]

This is so tire-ing




sorry

[Dan Chambers]

Dan,

I like the first 2,but, the last suggestion might carry the day...

Sorry! It's the heat. I gott go for a swim. I'm gettin' a little punch-drunk.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Wow, I can believe I stayed out of this for 6 pages...

Here is my 2 cents from a guy running a totally streetable overweight (2800 lbs) car is IS. This is the car I drive to work each day.

My 911SC Cab has torsion bars and sway bars. The engine is totally stock with cat by-pass and dual outlet muffler. (4 points)
These mods were done to increase the fun factor of street driving long before I AX'd the car.

When I come down to the stadium I throw on RA-1's (2 points) and increase the size to 225/245 (2 points)

I used to win (or almost win) this class, but I can only do that with fresh tires and my Toyo's are over heat cycled and I don't want to buy new ones until the next TT. As soon as Dan went to fresh R-888's and Paul to Hoosiers I was out of the hunt.
Still fun... just not as much.

I think about every stock car has 4 point suspension and that leaves 4 points for tires, but a fresh set of Toyo's will still beat an over cycled set of Hoosiers or 710's.

I think tires are under penalized. I would give them another 2 points across the board. (Odd numbered point assessments screw up the whole mix as you end up not being able to point out the car)

I would also like to see stock class be a non R-tire class.
Then people like me could drive the car to work Friday, get up on Saturday and run an AX without having to do the tire swap deal... not to mention the cost and space of the spare wheel set.
An extra bonus is there is less of a difference between the best and worse "regular" tire than the best and worse "R" tire.

So how do you do this?
Make R-rated tires illegal in class AS/S-OS/S. (I think that stays clear of the Factory R-equipped cars – I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)

Now this will only effect Stock class cars so all Production and above will be untouched.
This would allow that same 4 point suspension car to add 2 points for width and aero; or a strut brace and camber plate… whatever they wanted.

This is how we used to run a 911 “back in the day” when RE-71’s were the hot ticket and A-008’s were for the big time racers!

OK- let me have it…
What didn’t I consider and how is the going to ruin the entire point’s progression ladder.
But please don’t forget your smiley faces…

[Otto]

I am arriving late to this discussion but feel a need to fully support the point of view principally and very well argued by Tom Tweed and Paul Young. The point system we have to progress within classes is not perfect but the beauty and fairness of it lies in that it applies equally to everybody. What I mean is that we are all covered by the same rules and each of us has the option to use our "point budget" within a class in however way we believe will most benefit us. To those that say for example that we should ban 4-point Hoosiers, a DOT-approved R tire from the Stock classes or to raise their cost in points I say: If you believe this modification is so good that it gives those that use it a competitive advantage, why don't you select it for yourself? Or is it perhaps that you misjudged the value of modifications and have spent your points with less effectiveness? Just as important as improving our driving skills, we need to study very carefully and cleverly choose those modifications that are at our disposal in a way that will maximize the performance of our car. This is an important part of the game we play and if we make a mistake in selecting performance modifications, the answer should not be to try to change a very reasonable set of rules to be able to take a competitor out that was more effective at selecting his performance modifications.

[ttweed]

I think tires are under penalized. I would give them another 2 points across the board.

I am assuming by "across the board" you are talking about all classes and not just Stock class, no? That doesn't "ruin the progression ladder," but if you don't also raise the cut-off an equal 2 points higher for each step up in the higher classes (i.e., P at 22 instead of 20, I at 42 instead of 40, M at 56, etc.) then someone who has developed their car to the limit already has to either go up in class, change their tires or take some other 2-point improvement off their car.

I can agree that tires are undervalued, with the improvements that have been made in compounds and construction over the years, but I would like to see any change made in this area be less punishing for those who have invested in developing their cars to the limit already. I have no stake in the stock class and do not care what is done there, but I have spent 1-1/2 years building an FP car to the limit of the the class and would be very unhappy to have a 3rd car in 5 years rendered uncompetitive by another rule change.

<--- obligatory smiley face

TT

[Irksome]

Wow, I can believe I stayed out of this for 6 pages...

Welcome to the fray! =)

I think tires are under penalized. I would give them another 2 points across the board. (Odd numbered point assessments screw up the whole mix as you end up not being able to point out the car)

I would also like to see stock class be a non R-tire class.

Do you mean something like:
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points **
* not allowed in S/S
** not allowed in S/S or S

Make R-rated tires illegal in class AS/S-OS/S. (I think that stays clear of the Factory R-equipped cars – I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong)

I believe the only class that is factory-delivered with sub-140 treadwear tires is Q (GT2 and GT3). So I think you mean AS/S-PS/S. I'm not sure what I think about allowing QS/S to run 80-treadwear tires, in terms of how to write the rule. I'm fine with it in concept, but the wording of the rule might be as sticky as the tires.