Why aren't you autocrossing? A chance to say why.

[JERRY B]

See the Chairs are trying to make everyone's life easy, The next thing you know they will want the Track to be setup when they get there in the morning

Steve for corner working chair 2012

A lot has changed in the Past year maybe you should give it another try

[Don Middleton]

...Steve for corner working chair 2012 ...

+1

[MR LIPP]

Set up a question pole. It's easy on the forum.

[lagrasta]

I've gone from missing almost none, to missing two in a row because of work and getting things ready for our first child.

I'd be there if I could!

[Bob Gagnon]

Set up a question pole. It's easy on the forum.

It looks like only forum administrators can do this.

[Kim Crosser]

It looks like only forum administrators can do this.

Nope - it is easy for anyone to create one.
Start a new topic. Down below, you will see the usual "Options" tab, and behind that will be the "Survey" tab. Click that tab to get to the survey setup.

[stevemckay]

JERRY FOR A/X CHAIR 2012 AS A FAMOUS GOVERNER ONCE SAID"I'LL BE BACK" OR WAS THAT AN ACTOR, WHATEVER

[Jackie C]

Say Bob et all...what is your point of gathering this info? What do you intend to do to SOLVE any problems you identified?

[Dan Chambers]

Perhaps not the norm, but I left ax and came back, somewhat.
I have no idea where Dan gets his $300 for big track events because that isnt even close to the costs associated. The entry fee alone is $320, not to mention extra for being timed, transponder, tires, lodging, gas etc. you can rationalize it anyway you want but a dollar is a dollar. I did many years of AX in AM class with Mike G, Curt Anderson, Mick Rosen, Tom T. and a few others , since then AM has but a couple people in it. I then did TT's for a while but the costs associated kept going up , and secondarily it's a pain driving up and back in my car at such long distances. My car and I arent getting any younger.. . There are downsides agreed, Running around in the heat with no shade picking up cones for almost 2 hours sucks , but since they will never pay for corner workers its a necessary evil.
So I am back to AX, I really enjoy it, the people are great, and my car is well suited. So unfortunately you are stuck with me until they lower the TT prices...

Oh, well ex-cuuuuuse ME! It's not $300.00, it's $320.00. Pardon me all to h3ll!

Sure there's the entry fee, and then there are the "associated" costs for TT/DE's. So, are you implying that there are no "associated" costs to AX's? Cool! So, there's no tire wear attributed to AX'ing? There's no brake pad/rotor wear associated with AX'ing? There's no cost for gas to-and-from the Q for AX'ing? Lunches are free at the Q? There's some kind of magical time-warp that allows you to spend 14 hours at the Q .... and then reset the clock to morning again? Great! I'm going to drive Q events from now on .... and still have no costs or time constraints associated with driving AX's. Thanks, Dan, for the insights. Seriously,

now ...Let's look at some simple facts: (easy for me 'cause I'm a simpleton)
1) All track/driving events have entry fees.
2) All track/driving events have aditional costs unrelated to entry fees.... yes even Q events.
3) All track/driving events require time away from home, and possibly away from family if the spouse and/or kids don't drive.
4) All track/driving events cause wear and tear on the cars and their parts.
5) All track/driving events require prep time for cars that convert from street to track, and back again.

I think the bottom line: it's a question of perceived value and something even more interpretive... what seems like more fun. Boil it all down, and I think it's a question of personal choice: big track, or Q event. Those lucky enough to do both are the most fortunate.

That's just what I think ... Others will disagree.

Cheers!

[Bob Gagnon]

Say Bob et all...what is your point of gathering this info? What do you intend to do to SOLVE any problems you identified?

I am in no position of power to solve any of the problems I see, nor do I choose to be because I am certainly not the politician, nor do I have the patience with people (being the curmudgeon that I am) that would be necessary to make the changes I would like to see which are mostly rooted in club politics and the notion that autocross is the "financial engine" of the club, something I disagree with.

But, I figure problems can't be solved unless accurately identified and I feel the solution, so far, of having cars from other makes -the X cars- participate is a band aid solution that does not address the problems I see.

It is a solution that does nothing but dilute the value of PCA membership and even raises the question: can one autocross their Porsche if they don't even belong to PCA?

If it were me, I would "up market" PCA autocross rather than down market it with X cars.

I have to say that putting up with what goes on now requires a real addiction to autocross.

The value of any entertainment event is really a function of how much fun people have, so I would charge more for autocross, only allow those who had done a PCASD drivers school to play, not coerce people to instruct and have paid corner working so that the entire time was spent having nothing but fun for the participant. I would even limit participation to increase laps and value.

So, I started this thread to see if others felt the same, you can read the responses and make up your own mind on the suggestions.

There is no solution to the tarmac issue that is in the realm of club finances.

[ScandinavianFlick]

Bob,

In my opinion, what you just described is essentially TT/DE. Autocross is meant to be an event organized, run, and staffed by the participants, with minimal overhead and a focus on creating a sense of community (via shared effort and the social aspect of spending all day in a parking lot with people you have something in common with). If that sense of community isn't worth a little soreness the next day, then other driving events are available.

Also, the idea that allowing non-PCA P-car owners to run would be a bad thing is absurd. That's a great way to grow your membership. Just charge them $5 extra until they do join.

Most instructors instruct not because they are coerced to, but because it's a valuable opportunity to improve your skill set. Passenger seat time is seat time too. If you're really having a shortage, I'd once again bring up the topic of X-car instructors. There are certain individuals who have both the personality and experience to be valuable additions to the instructor corps (Mr Wong and Mr Rennie in particular jump to mind).

Lastly, the idea that my presence and the presence of other X-cars makes autocrossing less enjoyable for you suggests that you have priorities other than improving your skill as a driver and indulging in some friendly competition. I think if you made the effort to get to know some of the X-car drivers, you'd find we have a lot in common.

[Bob Gagnon]

Bob,

In my opinion, what you just described is essentially TT/DE. Autocross is meant to be an event organized, run, and staffed by the participants, with minimal overhead and a focus on creating a sense of community (via shared effort and the social aspect of spending all day in a parking lot with people you have something in common with). If that sense of community isn't worth a little soreness the next day, then other driving events are available.

We have different opinions here, particularly since, to my knowledge, the events you mention are not held at Qualcomm any longer

Also, the idea that allowing non-PCA P-car owners to run would be a bad thing is absurd. That's a great way to grow your membership. Just charge them $5 extra until they do join.

I didn't say it was a bad thing or not, I said it begged the question why be a member if you can run without being a member. Your point is good though.

Most instructors instruct not because they are coerced to, but because it's a valuable opportunity to improve your skill set. Passenger seat time is seat time too. If you're really having a shortage, I'd once again bring up the topic of X-car instructors. There are certain individuals who have both the personality and experience to be valuable additions to the instructor corps (Mr Wong and Mr Rennie in particular jump to mind).

If coming to an autocross and asking not to be assigned a student then being assigned a student is not coercion, what is?

Lastly, the idea that my presence and the presence of other X-cars makes autocrossing less enjoyable for you suggests that you have priorities other than improving your skill as a driver and indulging in some friendly competition. I think if you made the effort to get to know some of the X-car drivers, you'd find we have a lot in common.

As I said I don't go to socialize, perhaps other feel this way, perhaps not. I am curious what you feel my priorities might otherwise be than competition and improving driver skill here are; I have to say I am not particularly interested in how to set up a Miata, valid as that topic may be to some. Frankly, I don't mind if a Porsche owning member brings another car once in a while to autocross it. But it is a Porsche club after all and in my opinion, offering membership and/or benefits of membership to those without a Porsche dilutes the value.

[gulf911]

Oh, well ex-cuuuuuse ME! It's not $300.00, it's $320.00. Pardon me all to h3ll!

Sure there's the entry fee, and then there are the "associated" costs for TT/DE's. So, are you implying that there are no "associated" costs to AX's? Cool! So, there's no tire wear attributed to AX'ing? There's no brake pad/rotor wear associated with AX'ing? There's no cost for gas to-and-from the Q for AX'ing? Lunches are free at the Q? There's some kind of magical time-warp that allows you to spend 14 hours at the Q .... and then reset the clock to morning again? Great! I'm going to drive Q events from now on .... and still have no costs or time constraints associated with driving AX's. Thanks, Dan, for the insights. Seriously,

now ...Let's look at some simple facts: (easy for me 'cause I'm a simpleton)

No argument there Dan..
Dan, it was your statement of "I've chosen big tracks and 2.6 hours' for $300.00" , we arent playing jeopardy.
Sorry to inform you but everyone realizes there are additional costs above the entry fee. Check Toms post for actual costs of TT as well.
oh and FYI, your lists conveniently show everything but amounts...
Also when you are listing those costs dont forget what you dont pav at an ax:

Extra Fee if you want to be timed
rental of transponder
gate fee at the track
2 nights at a motel

Just because you get more laps doesnt make it any cheaper for the year. Please Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining...

[Kim Crosser]

I would even limit participation to increase laps and value.

??? I hear this, and variants, and it seems many people are missing a key point. If the number of people at the AX goes down, we won't have enough people to corner work.
A West lot track requires a MINIMUM of 8 corner workers and often more like 10-12, PLUS someone at the gate, PLUS 1-2 people at Start.
By National PCA rules, an AX *must* be a no-passing event and all cars must come to a complete stop at the end of each lap. That puts an upper limit on the number of laps you can run at around 1800 under ideal circumstances (we typically do more like 1500, but have hit 1700).
Simple math - 1800/20 laps = 90 drivers max. 1800/25 laps = 72 drivers max. 1800/28 laps (double what we do now) = 64 drivers max.
64 drivers / 6 run groups = 10 drivers/group. That is not enough to staff corners (+ gate + start), and means it is impossible for newbies to have a partner/instructor with them for corner working. So that won't work.
Ok - break to 3 run groups, with 21 drivers/group. That works, but now everyone does double time working corners...

So - plan B - the infamous "Paid Corner Workers"...
Does anyone know of paid corner workers who run around resetting LOTS of cones? All the paid corner workers I have seen are "safety" workers who aren't very motivated to reset cones. Oh, and if we need 8-10 of them, we need to pay $800-1000 for them. Oh, and unless we want to shut down for an hour for their lunch (and lose about 225 laps, or a major chunk of the laps we gained by limiting drivers), we would need a few extra, so they could eat in shifts - lets say we find and hire 12, at $1200.
So - now we have 64 drivers who need to cover the total real costs of the event.

Stadium rental = $2000
Stadium Use Tax = ($600/12) = $50
Corner workers = $1200
Port-a-potty rentals = $280
Truck rental + gas = $100
Ice/water/beer/wine = $400
Annual trophy fund (per event) = $400
Event awards = $125
Misc supplies (wristbands, forms, etc.) = $25
(Zone 8 fee for Zone 8 events = $8/driver) = $52

So - minimum break-even cost per driver for 64 drivers = $72 (non-Zone 8 event) or $80 (Zone 8 event)

This doesn't address periodic maintenance and repair costs for timing equipment, flags, cones, extinguishers, and other similar costs.

And - if we are limiting to 64, do we tell other Zone 8 drivers they can't play with us? Do we not accept students? Do we kick out other PCASDR members when we hit 64?

To get any significant gain in laps, you have to liit the number of drivers and increase the per-driver cost. And unless you REALLY limit the drivers, you aren't going to get a big increase in the number of laps.

Bottom line, we have arguably THE most efficient AX event (at least in So Cal), and I am having trouble seeing "the problem".

[JERRY B]

Kim & Andrew for president