HOOSIERS?

[Steve Grosekemper]

I think tires are under penalized. I would give them another 2 points across the board.

I am assuming by "across the board" you are talking about all classes and not just Stock class, no? That doesn't "ruin the progression ladder," but if you don't also raise the cut-off an equal 2 points higher for each step up in the higher classes (i.e., P at 22 instead of 20, I at 42 instead of 40, M at 56, etc.) then someone who has developed their car to the limit already has to either go up in class, change their tires or take some other 2-point improvement off their car.

I can agree that tires are undervalued, with the improvements that have been made in compounds and construction over the years, but I would like to see any change made in this area be less punishing for those who have invested in developing their cars to the limit already. I have no stake in the stock class and do not care what is done there, but I have spent 1-1/2 years building an FP car to the limit of the the class and would be very unhappy to have a 3rd car in 5 years rendered uncompetitive by another rule change.

<--- obligatory smiley face

TT

Tom,
Bumping all the groups up two would solve the issue and not ruin someones long term car project. Sounds reasonable to me.
So when are we going to see you in the 911TSC?
That car is going to be a blast...

[Steve Grosekemper]

Otto's point is well taken and my IS class formula is 4 car points and 4 tire spoints. Size and compound or all compound.
I could run 225 Hoosiers and be very competitive, but I would have less money and fewer excuses.

And yes my car is no where near optimized for the class. But the stereo is loud and the A/C is cold and I like that trade off.

Tom M. asked:
Do you mean something like:
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points **
* not allowed in S/S
** not allowed in S/S or S


Close, but I was thinking
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

[Irksome]

Close, but I was thinking
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

The only issue I see with the above is GT2 and GT3 drivers would be forced to QP automatically as delivered from the factory (with 80 treadwear Michelin PSCs).

[Dan Chambers]

Steve G., Great post. Thanks for supplying a great post. You get two smileys.

I like your ideas.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Close, but I was thinking
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

The only issue I see with the above is GT2 and GT3 drivers would be forced to QP automatically as delivered from the factory (with 80 treadwear Michelin PSCs).

Make the rule for cars in class lower that the factory R cars
Q is where GT-2 & 3's live so

140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S (except for class Q)
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

[ChuckS]

Steve:
Great! Let's write it up and submit it for consideration!

[Gary Burch]

Steve,
Once again you bring sanity to an out of control situation.

If we submit a proposal and it is signed by all those in favor, we might actually get'erdone

[gulf911]

Close, but I was thinking
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

The only issue I see with the above is GT2 and GT3 drivers would be forced to QP automatically as delivered from the factory (with 80 treadwear Michelin PSCs).

Make the rule for cars in class lower that the factory R cars
Q is where GT-2 & 3's live so

140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S (except for class Q)
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

We have a voiced issue with PCA Stock class, and we change the entire point system? What happened to adding 2 points to the total max? Because someone doesn't want to run hoosiers or the hassle of changing tires and I have to run against 3.6's??...lets see, 7500 for the motor, another 6k to go through it, modifications and kit to install in early car with installation another 2k...only $16k to compete and I am all set.... yeah that seems fair. You think Ballast Point would pay for that Dan?

Thanks to Otto for a post making excellent sense.

Start with the complaints first...

* <140 not allowed in S classes

Happy?

[4est]

You can always do what I did:

Do whatever the heck you want to the car, then find out where it lands you in classification, stick those letters on the car, and then drive the heck out of it for the fun of it.

I know what it's like to have a funky points rule that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. My 993 C4S got 7 points for being a turbo bodied car, which at the time landed it NP . Tire size, stance, aero and brakes. Having a 993 C4S is actually a handicap over a 'more stock' 993 C2; it's heavier, won't turn in, the aero is all show, blah, blah... (the brakes are pretty good, though, if I knew how to use them) I had a ton of fun and made some great friends AXing, so I am fully satisfied with my return on investment there.

I'm all the way to KM now myself, and as an NS capable driver I get trounced by the 993 contingent at every TT. Couldn't care less. I like the car, I have great fun driving the car, great fun chasing the better drivers, and wouldn't change a thing (except maybe my driving skill). My method of classification is to see who's running comparable times, whether it is a bone stock 944 with 186,000 miles on it or a brand new GT3, and go at it with them (with all the smack talking and good natured ribbing that comes with it). At the end of the day, I ususally need 2-3 Tylenol to ease the face pain from all the smiling/laughing/jaw-jacking.

As for the bickering, please remember: the burro is as welcome on the farm as the chicken or the pig.

Hmmmm.... In my prayers tonite I will include "Never allow the 39 cent ribbon in TT"

[Steve Grosekemper]

Close, but I was thinking
140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

The only issue I see with the above is GT2 and GT3 drivers would be forced to QP automatically as delivered from the factory (with 80 treadwear Michelin PSCs).

Make the rule for cars in class lower that the factory R cars
Q is where GT-2 & 3's live so

140+ = 0 points
50-139 = 4 points *
<50 = 6 points **
race = 8 points ***

* not allowed in S/S or S (except for class Q)
** not allowed in S/S or S
*** not allowed in S/S, S or Production (current rule)

We have a voiced issue with PCA Stock class, and we change the entire point system? What happened to adding 2 points to the total max? Because someone doesn't want to run hoosiers or the hassle of changing tires and I have to run against 3.6's??...lets see, 7500 for the motor, another 6k to go through it, modifications and kit to install in early car with installation another 2k...only $16k to compete and I am all set.... yeah that seems fair. You think Ballast Point would pay for that Dan?

Thanks to Otto for a post making excellent sense.

Start with the complaints first...

* <140 not allowed in S classes

Happy?

Hey Dan,
Did I mention I have a newly rebuilt 3.6L 964 motor looking for a home?
(Stock with upgraded fasteners and valve springs)
Come on... you know you want it.
Throw in those wheels I want and the motor is yours for a song...
(But then you would have to come up with a new excuse.)

[Dan Chambers]

We have a voiced issue with PCA Stock class, and we change the entire point system? What happened to adding 2 points to the total max? Because someone doesn't want to run hoosiers or the hassle of changing tires and I have to run against 3.6's??...lets see, 7500 for the motor, another 6k to go through it, modifications and kit to install in early car with installation another 2k...only $16k to compete and I am all set.... yeah that seems fair. You think Ballast Point would pay for that Dan?

Thanks to Otto for a post making excellent sense.

Start with the complaints first...

* <140 not allowed in S classes

Happy?

I think Ballast Point would cover it. Your whining is much better than mine. And as you said earlier, they sponsor whiners.

[Dan Chambers]

You can always do what I did:

Do whatever the heck you want to the car, then find out where it lands you in classification, stick those letters on the car, and then drive the heck out of it for the fun of it.

I know what it's like to have a funky points rule that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. My 993 C4S got 7 points for being a turbo bodied car, which at the time landed it NP . Tire size, stance, aero and brakes. Having a 993 C4S is actually a handicap over a 'more stock' 993 C2; it's heavier, won't turn in, the aero is all show, blah, blah... (the brakes are pretty good, though, if I knew how to use them) I had a ton of fun and made some great friends AXing, so I am fully satisfied with my return on investment there.

I'm all the way to KM now myself, and as an NS capable driver I get trounced by the 993 contingent at every TT. Couldn't care less. I like the car, I have great fun driving the car, great fun chasing the better drivers, and wouldn't change a thing (except maybe my driving skill). My method of classification is to see who's running comparable times, whether it is a bone stock 944 with 186,000 miles on it or a brand new GT3, and go at it with them (with all the smack talking and good natured ribbing that comes with it). At the end of the day, I ususally need 2-3 Tylenol to ease the face pain from all the smiling/laughing/jaw-jacking.

As for the bickering, please remember: the burro is as welcome on the farm as the chicken or the pig.

Hmmmm.... In my prayers tonite I will include "Never allow the 39 cent ribbon in TT"

What!?! Sensable, smart, simple and intelligent thoughts and philosophies on this forum? Forrest! What the heck are you doing!?! You'd better knock it off! The next thing you know, everyone will start getting along and actually showing a little respect for each other. So you just stop that!

Afterall, As Steve G. once told me, this is the forum ya-know.

Seriously, good input. At the end of the day it's about good times with good friends (well ... and sometimes a 39-cent ribbon or brass dolphin).

[gulf911]

Hey Dan,
Did I mention I have a newly rebuilt 3.6L 964 motor looking for a home?
(Stock with upgraded fasteners and valve springs)
Come on... you know you want it.
Throw in those wheels I want and the motor is yours for a song...
(But then you would have to come up with a new excuse.)

I have a better idea...Deiters can sponser me with that 3.6...

And Dan, Whining is when someone can run tires for free but chooses not to, and still complains. I complain because I can't spend $16K to put a 3.6 in my car, all because a couple in Stock class dont want to allow a stickier tire. There is NO comparison...its not in the same ballpark...it isn't even the same freakin sport...

Make all the tire/point changes you want to keep the few in S (Stock class) happy , but please leave the rest of them alone. No one in any of the other classes are complaining.

[LUCKY DAVE]

I think a serious point is being overlooked here. Guys in stock (like me for instance) want to go fast just as much as anyone else. The red mist isn't confined to drivers in AR1. Why would anyone think slower tires are more fun? Why bother spending a bundle to modify a car to handle better just to put slippery tires on it? Anyone who thinks that makes sense doesn't understand the go fast urge. Fast is fun....and that's why we do this. More fast is more fun.
We're not driving low rider Chevys down the boulevard.
There seems to be a move afoot to install the "Treadwear Taliban" as our lords and masters. Some of you would make good political canditates in one of our current national parties-- "MY moral conviction is such and such therefore YOU should do so and so"
Says who??
I'm all for stock(ish) tires in street stock....the whole point of the class is to make it cheap and easy for beginning drivers to dip their toes in the water and for experienced, expert competitors who may be racing their daily drivers and want to keep them in original condition. Face it, it's also the economy class (if there is such a thing when talking about Porsches).
Fine, I'm all for it, but by the time a competitor has spent many thousands optimizing their car to maybe be able to win their class (in "S" and above) once in while, limiting tire choices to "less fun" specs is silly.....and draconian. Not to mention throwing out the window all the time and money so many of us have spent on said mods.
Save money? This rule change will do just the opposite.
Someone mentioned safety. Sure, let's make everyone use soft wobbly street tires instead of stiff sidewall tires optimized for track use....that will be safer... no annoying steering response to distract us on the track, just pure marshmallows.
I've got an idea, why don't we make off road knobbys the spec tire?
This is just one man's opinion, of course, but I urge all to consider the far reaching ramifications of rule changes before jumping in.

[gulf911]

Imagine that, people in S class that want to use the modifications to go faster without having to spend boat loads of cash? Blasphemy!..

You make excellent points Lucky Dave.