Why aren't you autocrossing? A chance to say why.

[ScandinavianFlick]

Hahaha i think that might cause a bit of a ruckus... however, if the club is looking for volunteers to run for autocross organizational/leadership positions, i'd be happy to sign up

[Bob Gagnon]

Bottom line, we have arguably THE most efficient AX event (at least in So Cal), and I am having trouble seeing "the problem".

Kim- Please, don't miss the point here, as I mean no offense and I think the PCA autocross events are run efficiently.

But the real "problem" I wonder about is why is Porsche participation decreasing such that other marque participation has to be allowed to make up for it?

The question is what can be done to get the Porsche guys and gals out there.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Bob Gagnon - I know you have had years of racing experience and I commend you for speaking your true mind. Coming from registration volunteer experience, other people do feel the same way.

Not everyone wants to instruct all the time and sometimes not at all. We need to set up a system so we don't burn out Instructors, and they truly feel valued. As far as corner workers, sadly, I don't think that will happen.

Andrew, I agree that since we have opened our AXs to non PCA members, once we get to know some of the guys, like we do now, we could certainly benefit by having them become Instructors. However, it was mentioned at a board meeting that it is in the rules that non PCA members cannot instruct - not sure if those are National or Regional rules.

Maybe we can't solve all of the problems right now, but this can't get swept under the rug.

[Greg Trigeiro]

Do you still need to have a Porsche car VIN number in order to join PCA? If I remember, that was the way it was when I first joined. If so, x-car owners would not be able to join PCA if they wanted in order to become an instructor.

[pecivil]

I am curious what you feel my priorities might otherwise be than competition and improving driver skill here are; I have to say I am not particularly interested in how to set up a Miata

just a question, but if those are your priorities, then what does it matter if x cars participate? Are the miata guys asking you how to set up their cars? I doubt it.

It is the Porsche club, obviously, but if the mere presence of X cars bothers you so much, and so dilutes your experience, then your priorities sure seem to me to be other than competition and driving improvement because the presence of X cars could not possible dilute competition, or keep someone from improving their driving skills, right?

It amazes me how X car participation is such a non issue for the BMW club, but for the PCA it is tantamount to heresy for some members. X cars don't "dilute" anything unless your agenda is way far away from enjoying competition and improving driving skill. People need to chill out and relax. Its just a car for criisakes. Friends are what make autocross events fun. Cars come and go. If you can't enjoy driving events unless everyone is driving the same marque then you have some issues that are way beyond the type of car you drive.

Car guys (and gals) are car guys (and gals). Driving fast is fun. Having fun with people you enjoy being around is independent of marque.

[Bob Gagnon]

I am curious what you feel my priorities might otherwise be than competition and improving driver skill here are; I have to say I am not particularly interested in how to set up a Miata

just a question, but if those are your priorities, then what does it matter if x cars participate? Are the miata guys asking you how to set up their cars? I doubt it.

And a very good question. I can see where you are coming from and actually don't see any actual harm in other marques running other than the fact it is a Porsche club or feel an particular prejudice, after all, one of my favorite past cars was my Integra Type R (stolen) and I drive a modified Nissan 350Z on a daily basis (Brembo brakes, Track model aerokit, Nismo suspension, bushings and wheels). I have even run these at PCA autocross!!

It just seems strange to me that we provide probably the best autocross product in town (or anywhere?) and we can't get any new players to come that drive Porsche cars. So, after 35 years in the club wonder why we have to change things now because this is happening. Something does just not add up in my mind.

Is the demographic of Porsche drivers changing that much - are the old guys like me going away for some reason? Are people unhappy with some part of the event for social or other reasons? Is it that Porsche people don't work on their cars like they used to do and Miata and Honda owners do? Is it the tarmac breaking up? Is it because Porsche maintenance is so costly? What?

All I feel is that for some reason people aren't coming like they used to and rather than expanding the club beyond Porsche cars as a simple solution, I feel that the club has to be introspective on why things are changing first if it is to continue as a "Porsche" club.

Taking it to a logical limit, it would really be strange if autocross became the "financial engine" of the club and have less than a majority of Porsche cars at the autocross.

[Dan Chambers]

No argument there Dan..
Dan, it was your statement of "I've chosen big tracks and 2.6 hours' for $300.00" , we arent playing jeopardy.
Sorry to inform you but everyone realizes there are additional costs above the entry fee. Check Toms post for actual costs of TT as well.
oh and FYI, your lists conveniently show everything but amounts...
Also when you are listing those costs dont forget what you dont pav at an ax:

Extra Fee if you want to be timed
rental of transponder
gate fee at the track
2 nights at a motel

Just because you get more laps doesnt make it any cheaper for the year. Please Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining...

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one in the simpleton club, Dan A. Welcome!

Let me put it in language even you might understand:

I'd rather pay for 2 days, 2.6 hours of seat time, and over 160 miles of track distance than 1 day, 14 minutes of track time, and 12 to 14 miles of track distance. It's about seat time, and real speed. That simple enough for ya, big fella

P.S. Forcast calls for rain!

[ttweed]

It just seems strange to me that we provide probably the best autocross product in town (or anywhere?) and we can't get any new players to come that drive Porsche cars. So, after 35 years in the club wonder why we have to change things now because this is happening. Something does just not add up in my mind.

Bob,

Besides the economic downturn, which has certainly effected the discretionary spending of many folks, the biggest driver in the attendance drop at our AX events has been the development of a completely competitive (in quality) AX series by the OC Region running at El Toro in the last few years, IMHO. We previously had many entrants who would drive down from LA or Orange counties (even Santa Barbara) to compete in our events, because we were the "only game in town," so to speak. Now they can get their fix much closer to home, and it is easier and cheaper for them to attend local events. GPX is also ramping up their driving program with more events at SOW and Pomona. It is simple math--more venues competing for a shrinking pool of performance driving dollars.

TT

[gulf911]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one in the simpleton club, Dan A. Welcome!

Let me put it in language even you might understand:

I'd rather pay for 2 days, 2.6 hours of seat time, and over 160 miles of track distance than 1 day, 14 minutes of track time, and 12 to 14 miles of track distance. It's about seat time, and real speed. That simple enough for ya, big fella

P.S. Forcast calls for rain!

Looks like you are in a club all your own..

Since English and math dont appear to be your strong suits:
Again , the issue was cost , not what you would rather do, or how many laps per dollar, and its no comparison.

1 year (10) AX fee's with tires: $1550.00
1 year (6) TT with tires: $5250.00
not including lodging or gas.

Saving almost 4k...priceless...


Real Speed?? oh , you shouldn't open that door Dan...

[pecivil]

We previously had many entrants who would drive down from LA or Orange counties (even Santa Barbara) to compete in our events, because we were the "only game in town,"

Funny you should mention this Tom. I went up to the OCR events for a solid year and half because SDR was not allowing X cars to run, but OCR was. Now X cars are welcome in SDR, I stopped attending OCR since it is so far away.

exactly what you mention, but in reverse.

[Gary Burch]

Saving almost 4k...priceless...

Dan, I just like quoting you, I don't know why ...

Excuse me for a minute, I am getting back into the swing of things. Been on a sabbatical, but I am much better now ...

Why don't people autocross?

First, I think Tom is right about OC and the other groups up North improving their programs and attracting more drivers.
Second, I don't think cost has that much to do with it, I mean you can autocross on street tires. The problem is time. An ax is alllll day, and a hard day at that. Especially if you instruct.
Third, corner working is a pain, but a necessary evil. We went down the paid corner working path a few years ago, and I think it was Bob that had some input about the glories of paid corner workers, never came to much, I think insurance was one of the major road blocks. It, corner working, isn't really so bad, I mean what are you going to do sit around all day.

Maybe new people that come out to their first autocross are a little intimidated by all the modified cars, the big tires, the noise, the spins, and the perceived seriousness of the whole thing. They might just feel a little too intimidated to get into this whole thing and quit after one or two. You can ax on street tires and have just as much fun, you may not achieve "real speed", but still fun.

[Dan Chambers]

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one in the simpleton club, Dan A. Welcome!

Let me put it in language even you might understand:

I'd rather pay for 2 days, 2.6 hours of seat time, and over 160 miles of track distance than 1 day, 14 minutes of track time, and 12 to 14 miles of track distance. It's about seat time, and real speed. That simple enough for ya, big fella

P.S. Forcast calls for rain!

Looks like you are in a club all your own..

Since English and math dont appear to be your strong suits:
Again , the issue was cost , not what you would rather do, or how many laps per dollar, and its no comparison.

1 year (10) AX fee's with tires: $1550.00
1 year (6) TT with tires: $5250.00
not including lodging or gas.

Saving almost 4k...priceless...


Real Speed?? oh , you shouldn't open that door Dan...

tsk tsk tsk. I guess some people just don't get it. Sorry it's too complicated for ya, D.A. I can see you went to the G.W. Bush / R. Reagan school of budget and finance. Shame, really. But, you just keep your fun at the Q.

As for speed: if you untucked your tail from between your legs and came up to Willow to put your putt-putt up against my flailing SC, we'd talk about speed. But, you won't do that so there's no point in discussing something you're too afraid to attempt. Have fun September 24th with your quilting club.

[Bob Gagnon]

It just seems strange to me that we provide probably the best autocross product in town (or anywhere?) and we can't get any new players to come that drive Porsche cars. So, after 35 years in the club wonder why we have to change things now because this is happening. Something does just not add up in my mind.

Bob,

Besides the economic downturn, which has certainly effected the discretionary spending of many folks, the biggest driver in the attendance drop at our AX events has been the development of a completely competitive (in quality) AX series by the OC Region running at El Toro in the last few years, IMHO. We previously had many entrants who would drive down from LA or Orange counties (even Santa Barbara) to compete in our events, because we were the "only game in town," so to speak. Now they can get their fix much closer to home, and it is easier and cheaper for them to attend local events. GPX is also ramping up their driving program with more events at SOW and Pomona. It is simple math--more venues competing for a shrinking pool of performance driving dollars.

TT

NOW, that explanation really makes sense to me Tom. I am still living in the days when the OC Region gals and guys were coming down here, something to think about; maybe X cars are the only way out?

[gulf911]

I guess some people just don't get it.

Only 1 Dan, Only 1...

Tail between my legs?.. I was TTing before you could spell the word youngster. Although I usually waited until I was competitive at ax before moving up..
I'll loan you my knitting needles...

[gulf911]

.