PORSCHE Driving School

[David J Marguglio]

On whole, I feel that, as usual the school went off without a hitch. Los tres amigos picked up the fumbled baton and did an excellent job organizing their first school without the usual benefit of a year of co-CDI between them. Congrats and thank you.

This is one policy issue I feel should be nipped in the bud before it established an unwanted precedent; specifically the use of non-P cars in the school.

In my 5+ years with the club, I can recall one situation in which a non-P car was seen at the school. I believe the attendee had broken his/her car on Saturday and requested, and was allowed complete Sunday’s autocross in a BMW. I see no problems with that sort of issue.

However, I do take issue with a decision to allow non-P cars to register for the school and/or just show up on Saturday with one at the expense of all of the wait-listed members. Even in the unfortunate circumstance where someone breaks their P-car at Fontana the weekend before and is unable to rent or borrow another Porsche, I think he/she should be given priority admittance to the next school. Their spot should rightly be given to the next person on the wait list.

The fact that at least one such wait-listed member attended Friday night’s chalk talk in their brand new 997 was turned away to allow at least three non-P cars to attend is unimaginable to me.

[MikeD]

David, in general I agree with your sentiments. The club is extremely strict on disallowing a non-Porsche at AX events (see Membership and the Autocross). But then allowing them in the school that is, in my understanding, designed to give people a feel and understanding for their Porsche at its limits. I would think that if you are going to relax the "Porsche Only" rule you would do so for an AX but certainly NOT for PDS. And, as I said yesterday, I might be a little more inclined to allow non-Porsche's to participate if the participant broke their Porsche after registration, but prior to the event.

I think it is VERY important for the chairs of events to get together on this and be consistent. Not being consistent is sending mixed messages to the membership, and causing a lot of confusion, and in some cases possibly distention.

[Kim Crosser]

My $0.02.

At the Performance Driving School, I think some latitude in the choice of vehicles is a good thing.

I have been trying to get my wife to take the school. Since getting her BMW, she has begun to consider it, but only if she can drive the BMW, which is her daily driver.

If this is a "Porsche Beginning Racing School", then I can see limiting the car types. If this is a school to teach drivers safety, car control, and driving to the limits of their cars, then why restrict it to only Porsches?

I absolutely agree with limiting the students to those who are PCA members (or family or official associate members), but if a PCA member or their spouse/significant other wants to start out in a vehicle other than a Porsche, I wouldn't restrict them. Maybe they will come out, watch the Porsches, and "see the light".

I would limit people repeating the school to attending in a Porsche. If you are a first-timer and want to learn some basic skills in your (non-Porsche daily driver) that is fine, but if you are trying to hone some performance skills, it is time to bring the Porsche.

p.s. I believe at least one of the non-Porsches at the school was part of a 2-driver, 2-car family with one Porsche and one non-Porsche. This certainly seems like a fair deal. If any of the other non-Porsche drivers was an experienced driver "tuning up" to compete in their non-Porsche, that would seem to be unfair to other Porsche drivers. If all non-Porsches were driven by first-timers, then I am fine with all of them.

[ttweed]

I believe the attendee had broken his/her car on Saturday and requested, and was allowed complete Sunday’s autocross in a BMW. I see no problems with that sort of issue.

Except for the "BMW" being used, I believe that is exactly what happened to the fellow in the silver Mustang. When he went thru tech, he said it was a rental and that his P-car broke on Sat. but he didn't want to miss out on Sunday.

If we're going to quibble about off-marque cars, then what about George C.'s Noble? As an instructor, can I bring my sportsracer to drive on Sunday at the PDS? OK, it doesn't have two seats and I couldn't take my student out, but what if it was a Radical or Diasio or other DSR/S2000/CSR 2-seater?

TT

[martinreinhardt]

On the non-Porsche cars issue: I think it should at least be a high performance car, but preferably a Porsche, Lotus, Ferrari,… or similar. Porsches should have the priority for the event entry. As an instructor I prefer to teach a student how to drive a Porsche, since I am more familiar with high performance cars.

Note: A few years back I wasn’t allowed to run my Porsche 550 Spyder (Replica) at an Autocross, did the rules change since then? Maybe the problem was that I asked for permission.

[Carl Scragg]

A few different situations developed during the past few weeks and I made some decisions which may or may not be supported by the board. I'm not trying to argue that my decisions were correct, just to provide more background information to help you understand how we ended up with 4 non-Porsches running on Sunday.

(1) A member registered his teenage son in the school. A request was made well in advance to allow the son to attend the school using his daily driver rather than in his father's Porsche. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that this had been permitted in the past, so I approved the request.

(2) A member registered for the school, intending to drive the family Porsche. The car broke at Fontana while the husband was driving in the Speed Festival. A request was made (and granted by me) to allow the member to drive her other car.

(3) At Friday night's chalk talk, I was approached by another member who had registered both himself and his teenage son, intending to co-drive the father's 911. Similar to (1), the son rarely gets to drive the P-car and wanted to use his daily driver. I approved it. (The young man now wants to buy a 944 just like Jackie's.)

(4) During Saturday's exercises, a member had radiator failure in his 996. He requested permission to run on Sunday in a rented vehicle. He attempted unsuccessfully to rent one of Tim's 944s, and eventually had to settle on a Mustang.

I don't have strong feelings about these issues, and will gladly accept the direction of the board.

Carl

[harnishclan]

here is my .02. If you want to learn how to drive your other Marque car, join their club and take their school. Every performance marque has some sort of club. I can agree to using another car when unforseen mechanicals pop up, but at PDS there even seems to be an effort to match instructor to student by model. So who among the instructors is an expert Mustang/Lotus/Corolla performance driver? There were people and their PCA Porsches sitting at home this weekend because there was no space for them... If we are going to allow any marque, maybe a club name change is in order. Something like "Sports Car Club of America" no wait that is taken already. Seems a little harsh I know, but we can't try to be everything to everybody, it is intended for one marque.

[Robert]

Whatever happened to, "It's not the cars, it's the people"?

Seems to me everyone above has a defensible argument, from those suggesting Porsche only to those saying any high performance car. In our club, the Board has given event chairs certain latitude in making decisions about how to run events. As a chair myself, I don't think I'd have volunteered if they hadn't. It's not fun to put in hundreds of hours over the course of a year and have no flexibility in trying to put on the best possible event, make people happy, etc.

I may get dog piled on this since it gets said a lot when there's criticism, but there are three ways to effect change. Number one, step up and be a chair. Then you'll have some discretion and can change things using it. Number two, get on the Board agenda and lobby to have policy changed and the chair's discretion removed. I highly suggest you try number one before you try number two because, as I implied above, I think you lose a lot of chairs if the rules get too tight. And number three, do what's being done above and provide constructive comments and opinions about how you think things should change. This isn't going to be as effective as numbers one and two, but it should be encouraged and who knows, you may change a chair's mind about how they'll use their discretion in the future.

FWIW, my opinion on PDS (and for that matter AX/QDE) policy is a) you must be a PCA member or affiliate member which means you have to own a Porsche and provide a VIN, b) preference should be given to entries driving Porsches but any extra spaces can be filled by members who have appropriate other cars as determined by the event chair, and c) event chairs should have the latitude to make one-off decisions about member entries, taking into account all the facts of the situation (e.g., allowing an entrant in a Porsche who has a bona fide mechanical issue after entering their Porsche to remain entered if they have a suitable substitute and the chair feels that Club volunteers have the knowledge to deal with the substitute technically, instructionally, etc.). I think this philosophy reflects the spirit -- and the motto -- of the Club.

Full disclosure: I benefited from one of Carl's discretionary decisions, so to a certain extent I'm talking up my own book, but had he decided to the contrary, I would have absolutely respected his decision as chair because I believe he needs to have that authority.

[Dan Chambers]

I may get dog piled on this since it gets said a lot when there's criticism, but there are three ways to effect change. Number one, step up and be a chair. Then you'll have some discretion and can change things using it. Number two, get on the Board agenda and lobby to have policy changed and the chair's discretion removed. I highly suggest you try number one before you try number two because, as I implied above, I think you lose a lot of chairs if the rules get too tight. And number three, do what's being done above and provide constructive comments and opinions about how you think things should change. This isn't going to be as effective as numbers one and two, but it should be encouraged and who knows, you may change a chair's mind about how they'll use their discretion in the future.

Robert ......... I love you, man!

____________________________

Dan Chambers
#494 944 GP
2003 / 2004 Autocross Co-Chair
2003 EOTY
2003 Most Improved Driver
2004 / 2005 Board of Directors
2005 Vice President
2006/2007 Co-Chief Driving Instructor
1970 - Present, Porsche-Phile
2001 - present PCA-SDR_phile

[Mike]

I think Carl's decision for the weekend were fine.
Here are a couple of thoughts regarding future events.

Yes to all car makes when the club finds it can no longer fill the class with Porsche driving students.
When that happens a new dynamic will occur and instructors too will accept the situation....
We know other make car students are poor prospects for PCA membership.
They are not likely to become PCA volunteers and never again will participate in a PCA event.
Will Black Forest and Pioneer be as generous if we become an all makes school?

A less than ideal dynamic is created when other car makes are allowed in PDS while Porsche students are turned away.
Survey the instructors would they prefer to instruct in a familiar Porsche?
Are we risking the quality and quantity of our volunteer instructor base?
Are we safer instructing sports purpose cars vs Corollas?
Is the SDR Board ok with diminished PCA membership regenerating potential?
Statistically how many of the Porsche drivers in the PDS are now or soon after do become PCA members?
Is there a long term possiblity for lower membership and lost revenue?
What perception will a PDS littered with Corollas project on new Porsche owners?
First impressions do count.

Recently my wife took the class and was told she could not take it in her other make car, she used mine.
Whatever the policy is it should be applied fairly to all members and students.

[Mike]

but there are three ways to effect change.

Robert ......... I love you, man!

Dan Chambers

I love you both too.

I applaud the incredible efforts of Board and Chair persons.

I'm sorry but Robert's message brought up in the context of this discussion may have been lost through internet brevity.
We should just stay on topic, other makes yes or no and why?

Hey guys isn’t there a fourth method as well?
Discuss the issue with an elected board member/chair that in addition to promoting their own agendas will also represent the wishes of the membership majority.

Imho you guys are close to portraying Board and Chair members as power players promoting selfish secret agendas.

[David J Marguglio]

“It’s not the cars, it’s the people.”

That’s a nice tag line that contains a level of truth and togetherness that makes most of us feel good about our club, but it’s not exactly true.

If it were…we would let everyone join, right? After all, it’s about the people.

Okay, then ammend that to: “It’s not the cars, it’s the members.”

We're getting closer, but not quite there.

If that were true then we would let members participate in any car they wanted to bring to an event. Tom could bring his sports racer; Martin would have been permitted to drive his Beck 550 spyder; any member could bring their 16 year old out in his/her 1984 OldsmoBuick “Crapbox S” and let it stretch its legs at Saturday's autocross.

Perhaps the truth is something like: “It’s not the cars, it’s the people…who currently own the cars…that can be verified by providing a VIN number to our national office...and show up with said car...wielding proof of said membership.”

That sounds about right.

The original purpose of my post was not to bash anyone that brought a non-P car to the school, nor the event chair(s) that allowed them, but to point out (once again) the need for a clearly defined policy.

I understand it is solely the responsibility of the Board to make policy. As a suggestion, said policy could read something like this:

“It shall be the policy of the San Diego Region of the Porsche Club of America to only allow members and designated affiliates to register for driving events. Moreover, among its members, priority will be given to members driving their P-car at events which are at or near capacity as defined by the event chair(s). Event chairs will have the discretion to allow members to drive a non-P car in driving events while considering any or all of the following: 1. the vehicle itself: its design, condition, level of preparation, etc.; 2. the projected or actual attendance of P-cars relative to the event’s capacity; 2. the experience, skill, attitude of the requesting member.”

That would be a clearly defined policy. It would allow discretion on the part of the event chairs and it would provide members with the knowledge how they may be permitted or allowed to participate in their “other” car.

[Robert]

Hey guys isn’t there a fourth method as well?
Discuss the issue with an elected board member/chair that in addition to promoting their own agendas will also represent the wishes of the membership majority.

Great point. My 'number three' was intended to encompass all forms of communication, be it via the forum, a personal e-mail or a one-on-one conversation. And absolutely, the Chair should take into account all feedback they get in deciding what to do.

Imho you guys are close to portraying Board and Chair members as power players promoting selfish secret agendas

Interesting perspective. I certainly didn't mean to imply that at all. Things inevitably come up in the course of putting together an event, things that aren't black & white and don't necessarily fit into the published rules or policies for that event. And in making those decisions, I agree that fairness to all must be taken into account. And, as you implied, Carl kept this in mind when making his decisions.

[Mike]

Interesting perspective. I certainly didn't mean to imply that at all.

Certainly not Robert, and we all know you and Dan are far from it.
In the context of this thread I thought your positioning for a Board/Chair nominations was off topic.

What is the issue?
The wait list process?
Here is my 2 cents on the wait list.
This would not apply if the PCA’s policy were “first come first served regardless of car make”.

My example….
On the PDS entry in fairness to the students the policy should be clear.
For example.

As a student you are entering a PDS for Porsches.
If your Porsche will not be ready at the time of the school you need to advice the CDI asap.
If you give PCA advance (1 week?) notice then other Porsche owners on the wait list may be able to attend, if so you will receive a full refund.
If no Porsche wait list owners can attend the class then consideration may be given to other make cars.
This is at the CDI’s discretion and not all other makes will be permitted.
If no wait list Porsche owner can take your spot and your other make car is unacceptable your entry will not be refunded.

Honestly I am a little smoked that recently my wife was denied entry into the class, an adult PCA member in her 2 year old Passat.
But this weekend a couple of teenagers in other makes participated?
I can’t see the consistency, Deny an adult PCA member in a newer car, permit a teenager with a bad driving record in an old car?

[Jad]

In my opinion, I see nothing wrong with bringing another appropriate car when the planned vehicle breaks just before or during the event. I feel Robert and whoever rented a car for Sunday are innocently caught up in the issue of planning on bringing a non-Porsche AND the fact, that they didn't seem to really want to learn and listen just made things worse.

I personally don't think the CDI's did anything wrong, they made the decisions that allowed for the best school given the unfortunate circumstances.