seatbelts and seats for TT

[jerrygriffin]

I have factory sport seats in a 911SC and have 6 point belts and a harness bar, with a halo for the shoulder straps. My 2004 6 points are Schroth Prof III-41110 with the under the leg belts attached to the lap bolts, with the straps going over the seat bottom (at the back), so you sit on the belt. This belt, although made for this specific purpose, has nothing in the instructions (I still have them) showing this application. The Schroth website doesn't either, but has only the traditional racing seat applications (through the seat bottom hole, shoulder belts through the seat back, lap belts throught the side holes). I and many of my racing buddies think these new rules indicate we need to buy racing seats to meet the new requirements. We don't want to live with racing seats even if we wanted to spend the money, as we drive our cars to the events and drive home, and use them as daily drivers. Please give me/us a read on this, as the racing season is starting, and the Speedfest is almost upon us! Lower priority, my street belts are obviously over 20 years old, and the prices are about $300 per belt, I don't use these for racing, but they appear in perfect shape, if I were to buy new belts to meet the new rules, I would be less safe than the 6 points I currently like running, but I guess depending on your interpretation of the rules, this is an option to meet the new rules. Jerry Griffin 714.960.3595.

[ttweed]

Jerry-

I am no authority on this, and I would encourage you to contact the Rules Chair directly for an authoritative answer, but here's my take on it.

The section of the rules that addresses this is XIII.A. (Safety Considerations) It depends on what class you are running, and whether it is a TT/DE or autox event. Halo straps are still allowed if "use of a Halo strap is part of the harness manufacturer’s approved configuration." Also, "“H” style harnesses installed prior to 2004 may remain if they are in good condition and adjustment and if the use of the H style is part of the harness manufacturer’s approved configuration."

The anti-sub strap, however, "must be routed through the seat bottom in a hole and routing created by the seat manufacturer or in compliance with the harness
manufacturer’s configurations, including the angle of the belt."

For TT/DE events, "five or six-point harnesses are required for all drivers and passengers running in any Prepared class or higher." So, if you are in Stock class (or SS), you can use factory 3-point restraints, if they are less than 20 years old and in good condition. For autox, 5 or 6-point restraints are recommended, but not required.

The key wording is in the first paragraph of the section: "The entrant needs to be prepared to show that the installation is within the manufacturer's recommended configurations whenever asked by a tech inspector." If you cannot find anything supporting the use of a halo strap on the Schroth website, I would contact them to see if this is just an omission. In this age of product liability litigation, however, most manufacturers may be hesitant to support anything but the strictest installation standards, unfortunately.

For the formula-type, 6-point anti-sub belts, the Scroth installation instructions say: "The indirect routing requires a type of preloading of the anti-submarining straps during a frontal impact. This is achieved by sitting on the anti-submarining straps, routing them rearwards and attaching them in the region near or on the lap belt anchorages." This would indicate to me that you are OK on the anti-sub belts, unless their routing over the rear seat edge includes a turn down to the attachment points, which would allow extra slack in the belts. They specifically say that this is unacceptable.

The Zone 8 rules also say in XIII.A.3.: "Seats that eliminate substantial contact of the lap belt with the occupant will be disallowed", so if the routing of your lap belts over the seat cushion or side allows for extra slack or prevents "substantial contact", they would not be allowed.

In S or SS class, factory stock 3-point restraints may be the cheapest option, but they are sub-optimal in my view, for safety and driver comfort/control reasons. If factory replacements are expensive, all the more reason to go to a race setup. You could also investigate re-webbing of the factory setup, if your stock belts are old. I see nothing directly addressing this option in the rules, though, so I would seek a clarification about that before proceeding.

I do not really understand your statement that "We don't want to live with racing seats." Modern racing seats are designed to allow drivers to compete in long enduros in comfort and safety, so what is so "unliveable" about them for street use? Yes, it takes longer to strap into them, but how much of a bother is it to take a few more moments preparing to drive? Yes, some race seats have a minimum of padding, but many are quite comfortable, and if you need more softness, a few removeable pads can be customized and added for street driving. What is the beef (besides having to spend the extra $$$)? There are even some tilting versions available for access to the rear seats, if that is an issue. Although it is a bit of a hassle, race seats can also be swapped out for stock in between events.

TT

[993Panzer]

Regarding the comfort issue of race seats in a street car. I have Sparco Evo II seats in my 993. Before the full roll cage etc I used to drive it on the street all of time with these seats. I've even made several drives to Phoenix and back and found them quite comfortable. You do need to take your wallet out of your back pocket on long rides.

My 2 cents

[Jad]

I had some Recaro SPD (I think those are the letters), that were probably more comfortable and actually quieted the cabin because they were slightly larger and cloth instead of leather. They tilted forward and had some adjustability. I sold them to Ralph who used them as street seats until he sold his car, now Keith is using them as street seats in his RSA, so it can be done. Oh, and they were lighter than the stock 944 seats as well

[ttweed]

I had some Recaro SPD (I think those are the letters)

Maybe "SRD", Jad? Like these? http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/recaro_srd_5.htm

[Dan Chambers]

FWIW: I run a pair of older Recaro Speed seats in my SC. They are "comfy", quiet, and very supportive for more aggressive driving - much more so than the stock SC seats (Jerry, you drove my car with those seats, remember?). I've driven to Portland, Pahrump, Bakersfield, and many trips to LA in these seats (wallet removed, as Dave says) without any unusual or severe discomfort.

There are still a lot of these and other types of upgraded seats on EBay, and through the various forums/parts website classifieds.

I found mine through the "PCA network" of other drivers and paid less than $800.00 for the pair. They are completely "compliant" with the current rules, and they bolted right in. I like them ....

Whatever your choices, I agree with Tom T. to check with one of the Rules Committee members before any possible investments.

[Steve Grosekemper]

I have installed these seats in several pre-89 911's and they are really nice and can be ordered with "Factory" sub strap holes from Recaro.
These seats are in Hectors 911 that I occasionally drive as well as Stacy Smith's 911. Really great all purpose seat. Also lower for helmet clearance...

[Dan Chambers]

....Also lower for helmet clearance...

BTW: that is exactly why I installed them.

Jerry, you're as tall as I am, and I know I needed the extra headroom. you most likely do, also.

When I drove your car sans bottom-cushion at the De School ... uhm ... ouch! I understand now why they call it a cushion!

[Bill Behun]

Jerry - we installed Sparco Evo 2 racing seats in the 911 and both Gail and I found them to be more comfortable even for daily driving due to the total back support. The seats were even great for the drive to Buttonwillow ... both of us had no lower back issues ... never felt the need to get out and stretch. True, they are a bit harder to get in and out of but I found it to be workable when I drove around town.

Also, when Gail was having back problems driving her dailt drive BMW, she found some used racing seat, put it in and no more back problem. Her car sat higher so getting in and out was pretty easy.

Just food for thought.

[lrayner]

Are the seats with adjustable backs allowed in classes higher than SS for DE and TT? I think 944 spec requires fixed seat backs.