Advise on Trail Braking

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Advise on Trail Braking

Postby lrayner on Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:25 am

I know that trail braking is applying the brakes while still on the throttle and that it is supposed to help settle the car and carry more speed into corners (I think). I even tried it a few times at the last AX. But what I don't know could fill volumes.

Just when is trail braking helpful? Is it type 2 corners only? Where did you use trailbraking at the last, fast, AX, or where will you use it at Streets? And how do you transition from trail braking to full braking, downshifting or back on to the throttle. My feet were confused :cry:
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Postby Jad on Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:53 am

NO!NO!

Trailbraking is braking while cornering, NOT while on the gas! Trailbraking can allow you to brake a little later and to rotate the car better while in a corner. The best braking is achieved while braking in a straight line, if you continue to brake at the limit and turn the wheel, you will either spin or go straight, but definitely NOT follow your desired line. Thus, with trailbraking, once most of your speed is gone, you reduce your braking force in order to 'free' up grip for the tires to turn toward the apex. This technique requires strong seat of the pants feel for what the car can-will-is doing in order to maintain this exact balance. It is also used to actually pitch the car in a corner by intentionally breaking the rear end loose in a corner.

It is best used on decreasing radius corners, but can be used in about any corner. That said, some drivers use it more than others. Bill I. uses it a lot with his lower HP car with great balance, I used it a lot less with my Turbo, where getting the car straight and on the gas is more important. This technique does lead to fast in slow out driving :( if not used very carefully.

I feel most people tend to trailbrake naturally as their skills and car control develop, it isn't really something you have to work on too much. It can also be over-used as braking in a straight line is much more effective, especially in cars without ABS.

Does that help?
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Postby Jad on Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:01 am

PS. What you described is a type of leftfoot braking. Usually this is used in turbo's to keep the boost up. It is VERY hard on the brakes and I don't know of anyone who really uses it in cars. Karts need this for balance a bit, but the rare high speed corner that a tap of the brakes while on full gas would work where a 10% lift would not is extremely rare in my opinion and not worth the abuse and difficulty.
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Postby lrayner on Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:23 pm

Yes, Jad, that is very useful info and I am now comfortable abandoning my ill advised "left foot braking" experiment. So trail braking is more akin to easing off of the brakes instead of a full on, full off approach. Gee that might even help with smoothness :) .
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Postby Mike on Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:22 pm

Jad wrote: What you described is a type of leftfoot braking.
I don't know of anyone who really uses it in cars.


I started to left foot brake last year and have done so at CA speedway infield, Buttonwillow and SOW. I would really like to try it at Spring mountain.
The technique has improved/smoothed my 911's wieght transfer during cornering when transitioning from brake to throttle.
Or even in a 100mph sweeper when I want to transfer a little wieght to the front to get the car to turn in better, while not lifting off the gas.
Now I can't imagine driving with just one foot. :wink:

A good all around performance driving book (great brake tips) is called Going Faster.
Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving — The Skip Barber Racing School
http://www.themotorbookstore.com/gofamaartofr.html
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Postby Jad on Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:18 pm

Mike,

What you described is standard left foot braking which a lot of people use, including myself. It is a technique for smoothness, but you are not full gas while on the brake at Lee was discussing. Normal left foot braking can be useful, though the story is, convince your competition the importance of left foot braking and you will beat them for at least 2 years :wink: The 'advanced' left foot braking involves tapping the brakes while under full acceleration in order to get an instantaneous 110% grip from the tires instead of a brief lift to make a very fast corner that you otherwise couldn't make.

IF you can brake as well with your left foot as your right, AND you don't brake too often as it is so easy with your left foot just sitting there, you can roll on/off the gas and brake smoother using both feet than trying to transition you right foot from gas to brake. This only works in corners that don't require downshifting. Most, but certainly not all, professional race drivers do left foot brake at times.
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Postby lrayner on Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:35 pm

I ordered the book! I cann't keep embarrassing myself like this. :oops: Well, yes, actually I probably can. :roll: Streets, here I come!
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Postby Mike on Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:54 am

Jad wrote: convince your competition the importance of left foot braking and you will beat them for at least 2 years :wink:


That's funny and true. :D

lrayner
I hope you enjoy Going Faster, it really speaks to me.
Skip Barber's position is that the straight line braking outlook is a little too simplistic.
The book then describes in detail how braking does more than just slow you down.
It also has a significant effect on the attitude and balance of the car as it works its way to throttle application point.
Reading the book should improve both your driving and your ability to communicate track and car control issues.
I am no “expert” but you are welcome to take a ride with me at SOW while I left foot brake it around the track.
Ceratinly cars that are under-braked or already have brake cooling issues should avoid this technique. :wink:
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Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:37 am

Jad and Mike are spot-on about different braking techniques. FWIW: I rarely use left-foot braking, as I'm too rusty at it and I'm focused so much on smoothness using more "traditional" footwork I sometimes forget I can use my left foot to brake. There have been several AX's where, at the end of the day, I thought "geez, I was mostly in 2nd gear, I should have left-foot braked." (I'm sure Steve G. would have like it if I tried left-foot braking at tht last event ... I would probably have been about 0.28 seconds slower. :shock: :roll: )

Trail-braking is another story. I look at trail-braking as an advanced 'nuance' skill that experienced drivers should work on, and more 'novice' drivers should avoid until they have a real strong confidence on what they and their cars are doing at speed. But, that's just my opinion.

I agree with Mike (A-La Skip Barbour) that straight-line braking is a bit simplistic. However, for the learning-level driver, simplistic is good ... and safe, IMHO. Personally, I think as skills increase, nuance driving like trail-braking and left-foot braking become more important, and helps lower times.

Leigh, I think you may be ready to start experimenting with Trail-braking at the Q events. I might caution you to wait a little while before trying it at the bigger/faster venues. In your 944S, trail-braking will help you carry optimum momentum through corners and help with better exit speeds... But that's just my opinion.

Are you going to Streets, Leigh? Hope to see you there.
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Postby Steve Grosekemper on Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:08 pm

Dan Chambers wrote:There have been several AX's where, at the end of the day, I thought "geez, I was mostly in 2nd gear, I should have left-foot braked." (I'm sure Steve G. would have like it if I tried left-foot braking at tht last event ... I would probably have been about 0.28 seconds slower. :shock: :roll: )


Geez Dan... would you like some salt to rub into my wound?
:surr:
I give up... You are the SC master... for now :x

Wow! That looks even funnier ion type than is sounded in my head...
No really, you Da Man... :wink:
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Postby lrayner on Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:19 pm

Mike, I will take you up on your generous offer of a lap at Streets although with some trepidation. I rode with you for a couple of laps at an AX a while back. What a thrill. You are in a whole different league from the speeds I run at! See you there.
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Postby JHPGT3 on Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:12 pm

Re "trail braking" does "Lrayner" have ABS?
I was just looking at some video from our POC races at Las Vegas this last weekend (the inside track)and watching as guys with ABS were killing me trail braking deep into the corners.
If Lrayner has ABS, trail braking is not a big deal and should be done.
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Postby Mike on Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:57 pm

Question for a Steve or others?
This happened when I instructed a 996 driver at an AX.
It seemed if both the brake and throttle were applied on occasion the computer would override my open throttle request and return the engine to idle?
The owner warned me of this tendency before my left foot brake demonstration and during the lap it happened once maybe twice.
Later I was able to recreate the abrupt drop to idle while left foot braking in some tight 2nd gear circles.
Is this a common concern when left foot braking newer ABS equiped street cars?
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Postby Jad on Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:03 pm

Mike,

When you left foot brake, you are still on the gas? Thus you are using the left foot brake for balance, not to slow the car? If so, I misunderstood your first post and you would be the only person I know that uses left foot braking in that manner, sorry.

On my 996's, rev matching while braking is no problem so the throttle is not totally off while braking and I have never had either of them cut out while braking, but as I said, I use left foot braking for smoothness, not to balance the car while under full throttle, so that may be why it has not been an issue for me....
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Postby Mike on Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:50 am

Hi Jad,
I would enjoy talking about driving in detail in person, these brief blurbs leave much to interpretation and misunderstanding.
Yes I have dabbed the brakes at full throttle to improve turn in. :idea:
I'm looking forward to all of us chasing Erik K next weekend. :wink:

In addition to left foot trail braking I found some of these tips helpful.
http://www.scarbsf1.com/leftfootbrake.html

Fast corners:
With softly sprung road cars in fast bends, going from braking to accelerating upsets the car, You can balance the car by using both the throttle and brake together. On the way in apply the brakes and keep the throttle down, release the throttle more and apply more brakes to slow and balance the car, never lift off the throttle completely, then accelerate at the apex keeping some brake on only releasing them completely when the car is balanced again.




Left foot braking

Most initial attempts at left foot braking scare most drivers into never trying it again. Your left foot is used to fairly robust uncontrolled stabs up and down on the clutch. Braking needs a little more delicacy.

Learning process
At first try to use the left foot on the brake on medium-fast straight roads (with no traffic). You find you’ll brake a bit harshly (which is fine). But you’ll find you forget to release your foot off the brake, so the brake pressure continues and the car decelerates even more.
The first trick is to train your foot to lift off gently to release the braking pressure. Why you do this I don’t know, I’ve taught a few people to left foot brake and they do the same thing every time. I’d have thought with the left used to controlling the release of pressure of the clutch it would be good at this, but not so.
From there build up the initial pressure to train your foot to press down in a controlled manner, while still also controlling the lift off. Now try this into faster corners where no gear change is needed. Next we go off to a (empty) car park, try bringing the car to a total halt from low speed, you’ll now find this Keep on pressing reflex is more noticeable. When you normally (Right foot) brake a car to halt, unconsciously you release braking pressure as the car comes to a halt, to the point where just as the car stops you’ve release almost al the pressure. With this lack of subconscious control in your left foot the car stops abruptly usually by nose diving and smashing your face into the steering wheel… again repeated practice releasing the pressure with the left foot before stopping give the foot the control it needs for more complex manoeuvres. Now you should be able to vary the pressure on braking and lifting,

NOTE: Always try this away from other traffic, as sometimes you forget which pedal to push, with rear ending consequences…

To make use of the left foot braking you need also to control the throttle at the same time, again on a faster empty straight road slip the car into neutral left foot brake and blip the throttle repeatedly to get the feel. Once comfortable, try applying pressure to the throttle while left foot braking, to feel the effect. From here the world of left foot braking is literally at your feet.


Places Area to gain.

Non gear change corners:
Left foot brake in all the way to the apex and your right foot can immediately get back on the throttle. This cut the delay in getting on the power.

Slower corners:
Big gains in late are available as with your left foot already over the brake, you can go from power to braking immediately.

Medium speed corners:
With most road cars the improved handling response with a little drag on the brakes make corner entry faster and more accurate. Pressing lightly on the brake with or with out the power on improves the poise of the car.

Fast corners:
With softly sprung road cars in fast bends, going from braking to accelerating upsets the car, You can balance the car by using both the throttle and brake together. On the way in apply the brakes and keep the throttle down, release the throttle more and apply more brakes to slow and balance the car, never lift of the throttle completely, then accelerate at the apex keeping some brake on only releasing them completely when the car is balanced again.

Ultra fast corners:
A dab on the brakes keeps the engine pulling and is better than a lift off the throttle (particularly if your running carbs).

Gear change corners:
Left foot brake in all the way to the apex and blip right foot to change gear (only works in higher gears, 3rd to 2nd is more tricky) and get back on the throttle.

Unknown corners, corrections and emergencies
When in rally mode charging around unfamiliar corners a left poised over the brake can either allow for a dab on the brakes to improve turn in, shed speed or come to a big stop when things have gone badly wrong.
There’s no doubt that left foot braking is better in emergencies if the foot is already covering the brakes, a heavy tug on the gearlever puts you into neutral while the left foot is already braking

Up someone’s rear:
Keep the left foot covering the brake, in case of emergencies. When preparing to overtake press the throttle and balance the speed on the brake, when going to pull out release the brake and press the throttle all the way down

Someone’s up your rear:
Dab your left foot on the brake just enough to light up the brake lights, great fun, especially under heavy acceleration really confuses them.[/i]
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