HOOSIERS?

[Gary Burch]

Am I wrong about this, or does it seem to not be in the spirit of the Stock class to be able to run a full blown competition tire? I know it is legal if you have the points to spare, but should it be a Stock class option? Street Stock has its tire limitations, so why not Stock.

[ronaldtrotter]

I agree with you.

[Irksome]

As per the Zone 8 rules, true race tires are prohibited in classes below Improved. See page 10 of the AX, DE and TT rules, Section III, paragraph C:
C. Race tires or slicks, defined as non-DOT street legal tires (allowed in
Improved and higher classes only). 6

So, it costs 6 points, but can only but done in Improved or above. So, if I were to put non-DOT street legal tires on my car (currently in OS/S), I would be immediately promoted to OI.

[pdy]

The point was carrying the pure race tire limitation to Stock classes, like treadwear over 50 (or similar).

The intent of having assessment points for modifications is to allow entrants liberty to build a car with what they think is important.
With a given points budget, some will put their points in tires, some go after suspension, others pay points for lightness, and others still
in modifications that produce more power. Many will opt for a combination of some of these, seeking that blend that optimizes their car.
This is fun stuff. I run Hoosiers in both my I-S and I-I class cars. They are fast, but I think pure race tires (non-DOT) are even faster.
My decision to run Hoosiers sometimes yields a win, and other times not. In I-S Dan and Steve run other "slower" tires, and have
certainly whooped me often enough to indicate that putting my point into Hoosiers is not a sure-win decision.

It's open season for submitting rule proposals. Put something concrete and well thought out in writing and send it in.

[kurquhart]

My guess is that Gary is talking about Hoosier A6/R6, which are DOT legal but competition specific at the same time.

The reason Hoosier goes through DOT certification is to get around "race tire" rules like ours. Then they print "for competition use only" on the tire.

So, is it legal? Yes. Is it against the spirit of the rules? Yes, IMO.

Luckily, I am in KI, so I can use them w/o feeling guilty!

[Irksome]

Paul, are Hoosiers considered race tires? Reading about them on the web I can't tell. TireRack says they are DOT for labelling and marking purposes, but they are not street legal. The A6 and R6 are both under 50 treadwear rating, so it would seem to me (NOT an expert on these rules!) that they would be prohibited in S/S, S and P classes.

Can you clarify?

[kurquhart]

Paul, are Hoosiers considered race tires? Reading about them on the web I can't tell. TireRack says they are DOT for labelling and marking purposes, but they are not street legal. The A6 and R6 are both under 50 treadwear rating, so it would seem to me (NOT an expert on these rules!) that they would be prohibited in S/S, S and P classes.

Can you clarify?

Treadwear ratings are just points in S and P classes. Only S/S has a minimum of 140.

[Irksome]

Please read my post, a few up. It clearly states in Section III, bullet C of the points descriptions that the 6 points for race tires can ONLY be taken for Improved and higher classes. ie, you cannot use race tires in S/S, S, or P. Unless I am misunderstanding a definition somewhere?

*edit* The point I'm unclear on is if Hoosiers are considered 'Race tires or slicks, defined as non-DOT street legal tires'.

[Josh Y]

i have hoosiers and i would be in GS without them but since i do have them i just took the 4 points for treadwear and 2 for oversize which bumps me into GP
does this mean i should be in FI?

[kurquhart]

Please read my post, a few up. It clearly states in Section III, bullet C of the points descriptions that the 6 points for race tires can ONLY be taken for Improved and higher classes. ie, you cannot use race tires in S/S, S, or P. Unless I am misunderstanding a definition somewhere?

*edit* The point I'm unclear on is if Hoosiers are considered 'Race tires or slicks, defined as non-DOT street legal tires'.

Hoosier R6/A6 are DOT approved, street legal tires. There are many other Hoosier's that are true race tires, slicks or otherwise.

[Don Middleton]

What is the rationale for limiting S/S to 140 wear tires? With two points, why can't they run 50-100 wear rated tires?

It seems that, if the above makes any sense, then the rationale can be extended to other classes. For example...

S/S DOT 140 and above
S DOT 50 and above
P DOT 49 and below
I+ non-DOT

Non-DOT restriction seems to make some sense. But, why limit S/S and not S or P?

[pdy]

As Kris mentions, with existing rules, Hoosiers are NOT race tires, since they are DOT approved. Therefore, they are "legal" in all non-SS classes.

While Hoosiers might be better than other DOT tires, excluding them from Stock is somewhat arbitrary. The Kum-Ho Ecsta-710 is ALMOST as good.
Avon RA-1 are also nearly as fast, and the new BFG is also close, same for the Han-Kook. What if Yokohama or Pirelli come out with a similar tire?
See, it's a moving target, so where do you draw the line?

I have been on PCA rules committees since the '80s, including 12 years on the PCRs. I can tell you this is a knotty problem - there is no clear,
obvious solution that everybody can agree on. We have tried naming names (of tires) - With the changing market and tire companies coming out
with new product, that was even more confusing. DOT vs non-DOT and treadwear rating is at least something to base it on. All other sanctioning
bodies that I know of use at least the DOT criteria, and having wrestled with rules for tires for many years, the DOT rating has definite merit.

[pdy]

What is the rationale for limiting S/S to 140 wear tires? With two points, why can't they run 50-100 wear rated tires?

It seems that, if the above makes any sense, then the rationale can be extended to other classes. For example...

S/S DOT 140 and above
S DOT 50 and above
P DOT 49 and below
I+ non-DOT

Non-DOT restriction seems to make some sense. But, why limit S/S and not S or P?

Don - Porsche supplied treadwear ratings as low as 140 on nearly all production cars over the years. We want to allow truly "Showroom Stock" cars in SS.

Your idea is intriguing. As I said before, now is the time to submit well-thought proposals.

[Dan Chambers]

Am I wrong about this, or does it seem to not be in the spirit of the Stock class to be able to run a full blown competition tire? I know it is legal if you have the points to spare, but should it be a Stock class option? Street Stock has its tire limitations, so why not Stock.

Agreed.

Funny you should mention that. I queried Paul on this very matter Saturday morning when I saw his Hoosiers. Point is: he is running under the current rules and reg's. I didn't check the actual rating of the tires because Paul is a stand-up guy who also happens to be the Zone 8 CDI. I take him for the honest and good-sport competitor that he is. As someone of that stature and responsibility in the PCA I doubt he would stoop to something so low as to ...er ... "adjust the rules" to his advantage. I have, in fact, topped him on my non-Hoosiers in the past, so although the name on tire may seem impressive, they are not the monsterously advantageous "stick" that I and others might presume.

IMHO: Paul has optimized his car to the spec's allowed. His car is 200# lighter than mine, but meets the minimum weight allowances as defined in the rules. Paul takes points for non-stock torsion bars, tires, and adjustable sway-bars, and has no points for "optional " aero devices (removed ... smartly for ax's I might add) or tower-brace, such as myself. His car is light, rigid (thanks to the nice roll-bar, IMHO), and has the points in the tires, sways and torsion bars. He's optimized for winning A-X's. So, he wins.

So, If I wanted to gutt my nice interior, loose the nice stereo and comfy seats, pull the carpets and sound-proofing, pull the tower brace, pull the aero-pieces, add adjustable sway-bars and shells for seats, add a back-dated exhaust or headers, and pour money into expensive tires, I might just catch him.

As to the rules for ratings of tires and mod's in "Stock" class; yes, I'll agree ... or at least offer my opinion .... that "Stock" class cars with Hoosiers, gutted interiors, roll-bars (welded or not), racing shell seats, headers (with no heat-exchangers or cat) and straight pipes, and weighs 7% to 10% less than all the other cars in class seems a bit odd. However, that's how the rules are written and governed. Live with 'em, or drive in a different class.

I guess someone will just have to pick up pen and paper and get to work. Now ... where did I leave that legal pad......?

As to the "Spirit of the Stock Class" .... I'm gonna walk away. I'm just gonna walk away.

- IS Loser.

[Gary Burch]

A tire with a DOT 40 and this disclaimer;

NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE: All Hoosier Racing Tires including DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires are designed for racing purposes only on specified racing surfaces and are not to be operated on public roadways. DOT labeled Hoosier Racing Tires meet Department Of Transportation requirements for marking and performance only and are NOT INTENDED FOR HIGHWAY USE. It is unsafe to operate any Hoosier Racing Tire including DOT tires on public roads. The prohibited use of Hoosier Racing Tires on public roadways may result in loss of traction, unexpected loss of vehicle control, or sudden loss of tire pressure, resulting in a vehicle crash and possible injury or death.

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and swims like a duck-it's a duck.

Maybe we need a spec tire for stock class, F1 uses spec tires, SCCA uses them.