Question about Cone-Calling Protocol and AX 9/13/09

[jenniferreinhardt]

Cone-Calling Protocol and AX 9/13/09.

Is there a rule/protocol about too much time elapsing before a cone is called in? If there isn’t one, and you agree it stinks, any suggestions for Timing?

(My scenario: a cone being called on me from the very top of the course at Turn 7, after I had already completed run, stopped at bottom of track grid exit. listened to Timing announce time, and I had returned to the pits with no chance to protest extremely late and questionable call? BTW, Martin had observed run and listened on radio while corner working)

[Kim Crosser]

The week before, I had a similar occurrence. I was called for a cone in the second timed run, but the announcement came too late for me to protest (there were downed cones before I went through - I think I was called on one already down).

There is no "time limit" - for one thing, sometimes the trailer gets busy and we cannot always announce the times (and cones) right when someone finishes.

The only thing we can do is continue to remind the corner workers that you must see the car hit the cone - not just call in because there is a cone laying down after a car goes by.

[pdy]

Jennifer:

I am sorry I didn't call in your cone earlier, but I tried to! While running to take care of the cone, I was desparately trying to
reach the trailer, and kept getting no response. I kept calling, trying to report the cone. My radio was beeping occasionally,
kinda like it was just being turned on. I finally rotated the volume knob completely off, rotated the channel knob through
all the channels, and back to channel 1, then turned the radio back on again. Finally, I was able to contact the trailer, but
by then you had crossed the finish line. All this while trying to ensure corner safety with other cars coming and going, etc.
I'm not sure if it was a low battery, an intermittent somewhere in the radio, or if it just needed a "reset", but the issue
with late reporting was a legitimate equipment malfunction.

BTW, the cone you tagged was an orange one next to the yellow apex cone at station 7 (in the far-away corner of the track).

[martinreinhardt]

I also observed corner workers picking up cones and then calling it in, instead of calling the cone first and then put the cone back quickly and safely. I think we should also remind the correct procedure on picking up and calling in cones. When they go and pickup the cones do it quickly and safely, don't walk to and from the cone run if needed. I believe that I had a pretty close encounter with a corner worker yesterday in corner 3 because of it. "Safety first, don't worry about the cone" I will usually run over a cone which is already down anyways. The downside of this is that an unexperienced or distracted corner worker may call it in on me, which happened before.

[hmeeder]

Once yesterday as I was working turn 5 I attempted 3 times to call cones on driver but was subsequently stepped on by other corners calling cones (and an excess of meaningless and maddening chatter) and was unable to correctly call in (and get a receipt by the trailer) until the car had actually crossed the lights.

Under this scenario, what are we to do? Say that once a car crosses the lights and a time is announced it's set? Perhaps turn 9 and 10 cones would only count part of the time assuming that the corner worker was able to get the count in virtually instantly.

What protocol would you propose to alleviate this? I understand your frustration, but the passage of time isn't going to prop that cone back up. Timing (and the workers) do need the time to ensure accuracy and the person announcing is not the person running timing. There is always going to be a lag time, especially if the announcer is enthusiatic and perhaps "jumping the gun" to make the time announcement before the timing crew gets a chance to "lock it in."

I can certainly see establishing a certain set amount of time to lock in the time, but I don't see how the timing announcement could be it. If that were the case, the announcer wouldn't be able to announce time for perhaps a minute after the lights are crossed.

I was frustrated by the sheer number of downed cones I saw during my timed runs and should have insisted on a clean run, and would encourage that any corner worker feel OK in stopping the track to reset cones or grant re-runs if they see too many down and can't say for sure who knocked down what. I do know that everyone has the power to do that, but it should be emphasized in announcements to the corner workers prior to timed runs and make sure that everyone has reset the track before evry group. I didn't see much of that going on and am not entirely certain that I earned every cone I was called on.

[jenniferreinhardt]

[quote="pdy" I am sorry I didn't call in your cone earlier, but I tried to! [/quote]
Paul, I believe the cone you mention was already down. How many cars passed by the time you were able to call mine in?

Guess we could argue all day about this one, but that doesn't solve the real problem that this stuff happens often. When our per-person cost of running an AX is $200 to $300, I take the view that each cone costs us money!

With the great efficiency our club has, is it a lame and inefficient idea to perhaps impose a 30 second limit of accepting late cone calls - or perhaps just apply this to after the run is finished? Couldn't our Timing System Guru Tom Brown have the timing computer generate a reminder/warning to the Timing crew that this much time has passed, and do they really want to proceed with adding a cone?

[gulf911]

Jennifer, did you have the camera on for that run? You should be able to see he down cone on the footage? Just a thought.

Dan

[jenniferreinhardt]

Thanks Dan, yes we did check the camera but the camera cable was loose and no footage was taken all day.

However, we will now use both the cameras - shooting front and rear footage - so that we can review any potential cone problems.

It just seems to me that cone calling should come first, picking up cones should be next. If this can't be done within a reasonable amount of time, the benefit goes to the Driver

[pdy]

I also observed corner workers picking up cones and then calling it in, instead of calling the cone first and then put the cone back quickly and safely. .

With the radio malfunction, unfortunately I could not easily "call in the cone first", though I did try to call BEFORE taking care of the cone.
Realizing that the trailer is often busy and doesn't always confirm immediately, I am not going to wait for that confirmation before getting
to the cone (safely). I have worked corners many hundreds of times, and never had a problem communicating with start or the trailer while
running and setting cones.

Initially I thought it was just too busy in the trailer, but after re-setting the cone and trying to get a response four times, I considered it
might be a radio problem. Being in the far corner, I thought it could be a range or line-of-sight issue. I turned the radio off and back on,
but still no response. I then turned it off completely again, and jiggled all the controls, then turning it back on worked. Of course, I was
always aware of where all cars were, and my own safety during this situation.

Besides, in this case I was watching car 594 (504) in real-time as it tagged that cone near the apex - yes, I am sure. Then, the cone was
in the line for later cars, which would have needed re-runs if I didn't re-set the cone quickly (like waiting for confirmation from the trailer).
And I couldn't very well ask the trailer to hold the track either!

A vey few times in my corner-working career I have seen cones down but missed which car hit it. I will not try to guess in that situation,
so somebody got a "free" one. That wasn't true on Sunday, although I did see a downed cone way far away next to the Budwiser sign,
and reported that to station 8 - I try to be observant.

I do realize that it is frustrating and may seem like a bogus call. But believe me it was a real +1 cone situation, combined with a dead
radio causing the report to be late. I have had this happen to me many times as a driver, where I suffered the agony of defeat due to
late cone counts, after I thought I could revel in the thrill of victory (though I don't think it was ever due to a radio malfunction).

We could make a rule stating that if it isn't called in by a certain time, it doesn't count. That seems difficult to manage, and a bit unfair.
Or another rule/policy emphatically stating that announced & displayed times are not official until cones are added. This is the policy
in many other organizations, and may be in PCASDR as well.

And I'm not sure what I should do differently in that situation. If I waited to get confirmation before re-setting the cone, it would have
cost probably three, maybe four re-runs. I don't think that's good judgment. I could have walked (run) over to the nearest other corner
station and used their radio, but abandoning station 7 would probably not have been wise. As I mentioned before, I will not report cones
unless I am certain, but I will report legitimate cones as soon as possible.

Maybe I should be banned/excused from working corners? (Would that include the morning session I worked with students too?)

[jenniferreinhardt]

Paul , thank you for the lengthy explanation. I do appreciate your efforts. It is a Timing Committee call, of which committee I am supposedly in training for - if I could get out of corner working.

[Bill Behun]

As AX chair I'll think about this some more and how this issue can be handled.

One thing a bit different yesterday we all know is due to the number of entrants we could only have a minimum of corner stations to be able to staff them. That meant some corners had a ton of area/cones to cover (I know as I worked an area).

We did space out the cars farther for timed runs but reflecting back on the day, if one station had a cone hit at each end of their work area, spacing cars real far apart might not have solved all the problem and the timed runs would have taken forever. Hmmm.

I think with our usual number of entrants and corners this issue would have been a lot less. Still, we need to think about this some more. Fortunately, we have some time as the next AX is in the SE lot. I think the SE lot has way less issues regarding this.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Bill, you are so fair! Thanks for all the work you do!

Won't be able to make the next AX or so but dear husband has actually mentioned the Hoosier name this time! If I can drive the car with them, and they really do decrease times by 2 seconds, maybe a cone now and then won't matter to me as much

[mrondeau]

I think Bill has some valid points about the AX. We had 71 entrants and it normally takes a minimum of 66 people to work corners at a west lot event. With the layout yesterday, we probably needed 72 or more. I know that many of the instructors worked two sessions (Thank you instructors). In spite of Paul's efforts to get banned from corner working (nice try), we typically have our most experienced drivers working timed runs. Yesterday may have been an exception or they may have been spread way too thin. I know that stations 9 and 8 seemed to be miles from station 10. The track layout also seemed to lend itself to more cones being knocked over than we usually see. I think that having someone from timing discuss proper cone calling protocol during the moring talk and/or before the last two corner working groups go out would be a good thing and shouldn't take much time and may actually make the timing chairs job easier. Just my .02 (worth about .0116 in this economy).

[stevemckay]

This was discussed at the drivers meeting ,my take on this was; if your not sure and did not actually see it go down it is a free cone.This should be part of the corner working instructions at the drivers meeting in the morning.Maybe the driver should be allowed a rerun if he or she put a hand out at the corner in question.

[Gary Burch]

Sunday, we could have used a bigger gap between the cars in timed runs. With the lack of corner workers and no real time constraints it might have made things easier.