PCA SDR

For all you techno-weenies out there (I resemble that remark!):

How about a nice linear programming challenge for the holidays?

Assume you have six colored run groups (Red, White, Blue, Orange, Green, and Yellow).
Each group must do corner working while three other groups drive.
Further assume that all Instructors are in either the Red, White, or Orange groups, and all students are in the Blue, Green, or Yellow groups - for simplicity, assume only one student per instructor and that the Instructor-Student pairings are:
Red Instructor = Green Student
Orange Instructor = Blue Student
White Instructor = Yellow Student
The instructor and student run groups must not conflict when corner working (i.e., an instructor cannot be corner working while the student is driving, or vice-versa). EXCEPT that for the timed runs (last two sets of run groups), instructors and students can drive separately.
The instructor should drive in their run group (with the student riding) prior to the student driving with the instructor. (*** This is a key change we would like to implement - many students have commented that the track/line became much clearer after they rode with their instructor.)
Assume that students need their instructors while corner working - but instructors do NOT need to have their students while corner working.
Corner workers CANNOT be scheduled to drive in the run group immediately after their corner working session.
Corner workers (and/or their instructors/students) SHOULD NOT be scheduled to drive immediately before their corner working session.

Ok - find the optimum distribution of run groups and corner working that minimizes the above conflicts.

The best I have been able to come up with is:
Session 1 -
Blue corner workers (with Orange instructors as needed)
Red, Green, White run groups
Session 2 -
Green corner workers (with Red instructors as needed)
Yellow, Orange, Blue run groups
Session 3 -
Orange corner workers
White, Yellow, Red run groups
Session 4 -
Yellow corner workers (with White instructors as needed)
Green, Orange, Blue run groups
Session 5 (timed runs)
Red corner workers
White, Green, Yellow run groups
Session 6 (timed runs)
White corner workers
Blue, Orange, Red run groups

The only problem I can see with the order above is that at the end of Session 2, the Blue drivers will be out with their Orange instructors, which means that the Orange instructors aren't available to "hot swap" to their corners for Session 3. Ergo, we have to shut down the track between 2 and 3 or leave the Session 2 workers out on the track longer...

Can any mathematical geniuses out there come up with a better solution (or prove that such a solution isn't possible).

I am trying to get around the persistent problems of hot swapping while having students and/or instructors in cars immediately before/after corner working switches. (How many of you have had to jump out of cars recently to show up for corner working?)

I will provide a prize to anyone who provides a better solution that meets all the criteria above.

Paid cornerworkers

That's really easy.......Paid corner workers.
Wheres my prize???

MARTIN!!!!!!

Geez, couldn't you have waited a second or two??? I think we were typing at the same time...

mip mip (roadrunner sound)

martinreinhardt wrote:Paid cornerworkers

Hi Guys:

Jut a few thoughts ... peppered with some humor:

Although I like the idea of paid corner workers at A-X's from a lazy/candy-A$$ point of view, the reality of the benefits to Corner Working are many:

- Instructors have a great tool for teaching: taking a student out to watch drivers, and their styles (good and bad) of driving.

- Students have a great opportunity to get out on the track and see what the course looks like from "outside the windshield." A corner that the student is having trouble with becomes a case-study for them while cornerworking. This is really important to newer drivers. (As veterans, the instructors may no longer see the benefit of cornerworking as a learning tool. They're too experienced , too good a driver , and haven't had to learn anything in such a long time , their "Learning Brain" is in neutral . Now there's something to debate! )

- For some, relieving themselves from Cornerworking (Oh - that doesn't sound right!!) uh, I mean, removing themselves from cornerworking obligation by coming early and helping with set-up means the A-X Chairs generate a strong morning work force to get things going. Thus, indirectly, cornerworking responsibilities creates a working pool for the AM crowd and set-up. Without this system, I fear the Chairs would find themselves with smaller crews in the morning, and delays in start-time may occur.

- As part of a tradition that goes back to the 60's, Cornerworking is an integral part of A-X's ... as much as are the timed runs at the end of the day. Nothing builds a sense of community like everyone pitching in to help with the nuts-and-bolts operation of the day. One concern I would mention ..... and yes, I'm really out there with this .... is that a sense of community would be lost and the chance of isolationism in the pits would become more prevelent without everyone pitching in throughout the day. I think cornerworking is a great chance to mingle with, and meet other drivers throughout the day. It's part of a tradition.

So, as much as many folks, especially those who have been to events that have paid corner workers, would like to see paid cornerworkers at the A-X's, it might actually impede on the learning tools and the logistical functioning of a very good system, as well as abandoning a tradition that goes back 40 years.

Kim, you've done a great job of working this solution. I've been in conversastion with the guys who set up the current program to see about putting the Instructors out in cornerworking first, followed by the students, and finishing with the non-student drivers who don't have Instructors last. If it were possible to do it this way, the Instructors would work 1 cornerworking session, their students would work two (or one if they are already skilled at cornerworking), and the knowledgeable drivers would work the timed runs effectively. (Currently, the Instructors work 2 cornerworking events - 1 with their student, and 1 their own session. This is a bit backwards to me .... the student needs to work 2.)

Anyway ... just my thoughts. Nice work, Kim. Talk with Lewis Wise, the CDI's and the Registrars about this. They're pretty knowledgeable on these topics.

Happy Holidays!

Dan Chambers wrote:- For some, relieving themselves from Cornerworking (Oh - that doesn't sound right!!) uh, I mean, removing themselves from cornerworking obligation by coming early and helping with set-up means the A-X Chairs generate a strong morning work force to get things going. Thus, indirectly, cornerworking responsibilities creates a working pool for the AM crowd and set-up. Without this system, I fear the Chairs would find themselves with smaller crews in the morning, and delays in start-time may occur.

Not to sound jaded, and I realize that I have not participated in a lot of AXes this year, but the last 3 events I've worked the morning crew I have ALSO had to cornerwork. So the rational mind says what is the point of getting up 2 hours earlier than everyone else? There doesn't seem to be one.

If you are going to use this as a tool to convince people to show up early, stay late, or volunteer in other ways, you need to stick by this 100%. If it turns out that you do not have enough people for the corners then you need to figure out how to make this work BEFORE coming up with some fancy equation to increase the efficiency of the rotation.

I get a TON more track time at a TT, I don't have to work the corners, and Jack still seems to manage to get people lined up to help with what needs to be done.

This is one of the reasons why TTes take a priority over AX's in my schedule and budget.

My vote: Paid corner workers. Which, by-the-way would not prevent students from going out on the track and observing a corner or two.

While you make good political points Dan, my .02 would be:

Students aren't seeing the 'track', their watching a corner, maybe a single corner, this gives you little knowledge on what its like from inside the car. Also the new people won't really be able to know who is taking it right or not, and watching 10 cars go through you could see 10 different approaches. Also the student doesn't get to pick the corner they are having trouble with, So I don't really buy any part of that argument. I also don't agree with your isolationism issue, during the event myself and others all make a trip around the pits to say hi and check out all the cars. Without having to cornerwork there would also be additional time for this. And finally, nobody likes change, but tradition shouldn't be a reason to avoid it. Even if you were to vote it in for only half the year to, at the very least, try it, you would see if it works or it doesn't. And after that I have a feeling you would have a lot of trouble going back to tradition.

Often, the less there is to justify a traditional custom, the harder it is to get rid of it.
- Mark Twain

Come one, tradition is great. I believe that we should always stick with the way things have been. Look at what this jury trial justice system has done for us. In the past, we used to just take a person we thought was guilty of a crime, say being a witch or a warlock. Then, we threw them in the river and if they drowned, they were innocent. If they didn't drown, it proved they were guilty and then we burned them at the stake. A "tradition" like this can't possibly be improved upon, can it?

Plus, I'm having a lot of trouble finding a doctor who is steeped in tradition. When I'm sick, I prefer to have a traditional blood-letting performed to help me overcome my illness instead of this anti-biotics crap.

There is nothing more "isolated" at an autocross than standing out in a remote area of a parking lot and working corners for an hour and forty five minutes. I went to only one autocross this year and left early, but only after working corners for FIVE RUN GROUPS! Lets see, 18 total run groups, divided by six cornerworking groups equals......... well, it's less than five! Who needs it, thanks to Jack and our new TT series?

This paid cornerworker thing at an autocross is a DEAD HORSE. We've tried to talk about it every year for the past six years. It's not gonna happen.....EVER.

Now let me see, where can I find a new camel? After all, that is a traditional form of transportation. Who needs these new fangled horseless carriages?

for everything in this post except my description of working corners at the July autocross, that gets

Witch or Warlock...Bloodletting....Oh man I cant take it.. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

The reason I keep getting dragged into these threads, year after year, is the "spin" that cornerworking is somehow this great opportunity to learn and now Dan C is also pointing out that it is a great "opportunity to socialize." Holy cow, Dan C, you could make a fortune selling sand in the desert

Look, lets just all say flat out, that cornerworking sucks, but if you want to autocross, you have to do it. Case closed. Then newbies don't walk in from cornerworking and say, "gee, I didn't learn jack, and now my voice is hoarse from trying to socialize with the guy at turn 17 from my post at turn 4." Then they look around at 139 other people and wonder if we're all insane because we love the "opportunity" TO CORNERWORK. I swear this board just cracks me up, but in a good way.

You know, it's just like a prostate exam. Fortunately, most doctors won't tell you to look at the exam procedure as "educational" and a "good chance to socialize"? Wouldn't you wonder about your doctor if he did?

Hey Dan C..... I think there is a new job opportunity for you as a PR man for the National Proctologists Association. If anyone can sell it, I believe you can.

Okay, guys. Some friendly responses.

MikeD wrote:
"Not to sound jaded, and I realize that I have not participated in a lot of AXes this year, but the last 3 events I've worked the morning crew I have ALSO had to cornerwork. So the rational mind says what is the point of getting up 2 hours earlier than everyone else? There doesn't seem to be one."

Mike, the on-board policy is, if you arrive in the morning and help, you're supposed to be absolved of cornerworking. If this doesn't happen, find an AX Chair and let him/her know you worked mornings. There's a good possibility you should not have to work corners. Now, having said that, if you're in a run group (ah, Red run group always comes to mind ) that is low in drivers, you might be "stuck" working both mornings and cornerworking ...... unless you have the foresight to realize that you're in a small run group. If you check the board for run group numbers, or check with the cornerworker chair prior to your assigned cornerworking duties, you might consider driving in white or orange, which typically have hugh numbers, and some drivers are excused from working corners because there are more drivers than corners (typically I run in white ..... and I will ALWAYS run in white regardless of my times, because it has a very high number of drivers, and my chances of being excused from cornerworking, if I worked in the morning set-up, are very very good. ) Now, I know some of you might "hurumph!" at the notion of not running in the coveted Red run group. But, consider Orange or White run groups ..... with a high number of Instructors (sooths the ego a bit ) and high volume of drivers. In fact, looking at Green, and Yellow run groups, there's plenty of room. Since you're running individual laps, and not 'wheel to wheel,' what difference will it make in your times if a 914, or 944 ( AAHHH!!! ) is in front of you? Just a thought.

Dan A wrote:
"Students aren't seeing the 'track', their watching a corner, maybe a single corner, this gives you little knowledge on what its like from inside the car. Also the new people won't really be able to know who is taking it right or not, and watching 10 cars go through you could see 10 different approaches. Also the student doesn't get to pick the corner they are having trouble with, So I don't really buy any part of that argument. "

Well Dan, a good Instructor will take their student out to a corner and say: "watch this car.... turns in early..... brakes late....... doesn't have any track-out....... on the throttle very late. Not good. Now, watch this next car........ approach is way outside........brakes in a straight line...... brakes clean, and early to settle the car..... off the brakes and turns in smooth while gently applying throttle.... and look at the clean track-out. Very nicely done." So, your right, Dan A. The student may not know what is right or wrong; that's where the Instructor comes in. It's your (and my) job to make sure the student sees the difference in driving. In terms of picking a corner, the student can ask the Instructor, who then may ask the Cornerworkers Chair to work a particular corner. Jad, Ralph, and Keith did this for me every time I went out with them to corner work. For two years. It can happen. It did happen. I did in fact pick my most troublesome corner. If your don't buy the argument, it may have more to do with not wanting to work the corners than understand the principle of cornerworking as an instruction tool.

Dan A also wrote:
"I also don't agree with your isolationism issue, during the event myself and others all make a trip around the pits to say hi and check out all the cars. Without having to cornerwork there would also be additional time for this."

As a veteran driver, you are more likely to travel through the pits and visit old friends and their cars. As a new driver (and remember, most participants are newer drivers .... some are first-timers), you might find yourself sitting in your pit area all day, not knowing enough people or being too intimidated to reach out. Cornerworking, especially for new or first-time participants, is a great ice-breaker. When you think of Autocrossing..... put yourself in the shoes of a brand-new driver, not a veteran of many, many years. Your second point about having more time to socialize in the pits if not cornerworking is valid. I agree 100%. However, a job is a job... and the job comes first. That's how 145 drivers can get through a day with 10 to 12 laps for each driver. Work, not whining.


Finally, Curt A. wrote:
"Then, we threw them in the river and if they drowned, they were innocent. If they didn't drown, it proved they were guilty and then we burned them at the stake. A "tradition" like this can't possibly be improved upon, can it?"

So, Curt, can you swim? Your argument about tradition is baseless ..... which is why I like it .

One last thought: Autocrosses are about more than just driving. They're about the whole process. By cornerworking, every person is an integral part of the whole process, not just a jockey out to show everyone how good they are at driving. Time Trials and Club Racing afford an opportunity to strut, brag, crow, and generally show how infinitely awesome they are as a driver, and you pay for it. Autocrosses are more akin to a good ol' fashion barn raising. Low cost, bring your own tools, and be a part of the whole process. One big happy community.


Okay, so there's enough to chew on for the Holidays.


Happy Holidays to Everyone, and Much Respect!

Dan Chambers wrote:One last thought: Autocrosses are about more than just driving. They're about the whole process. By cornerworking, every person is an integral part of the whole process, not just a jockey out to show everyone how good they are at driving. Autocrosses are more akin to a good ol' fashion barn raising. Low cost, bring your own tools, and be a part of the whole process. One big happy community.

Dan C, much respect right back at you....seriously! The part of your post I quoted above makes me all warm and toasty. Since I have about 300 guitars within 100' of me right now, I think I'll strum a little Dan C inspired ditty. Anyone else want to sing along?

Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah

Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya


Happy Holidays everyone!

Sorry about your thread hijack Kim. You asked a math question though and did you see how quickly we all changed the subject?

Dan Chambers wrote:Mike, the on-board policy is, if you arrive in the morning and help, you're supposed to be absolved of cornerworking. If this doesn't happen, find an AX Chair and let him/her know you worked mornings. There's a good possibility you should not have to work corners. Now, having said that, if you're in a run group (ah, Red run group always comes to mind ) that is low in drivers, you might be "stuck" working both mornings and cornerworking ...... unless you have the foresight to realize that you're in a small run group. If you check the board for run group numbers, or check with the cornerworker chair prior to your assigned cornerworking duties, you might consider driving in white or orange, which typically have hugh numbers, and some drivers are excused from working corners because there are more drivers than corners (typically I run in white ..... and I will ALWAYS run in white regardless of my times, because it has a very high number of drivers, and my chances of being excused from cornerworking, if I worked in the morning set-up, are very very good. ) Now, I know some of you might "hurumph!" at the notion of not running in the coveted Red run group. But, consider Orange or White run groups ..... with a high number of Instructors (sooths the ego a bit ) and high volume of drivers. In fact, looking at Green, and Yellow run groups, there's plenty of room. Since you're running individual laps, and not 'wheel to wheel,' what difference will it make in your times if a 914, or 944 ( AAHHH!!! ) is in front of you? Just a thought.

First, let me make sure you know that I didn't know I was going to be put in Red this past AX. And, personally I could care less which run group I am in at an AX. It's a completly different matter at a TT or race, but for AX who cares.

Second, your argument doesn't really hold any water. You can't say to a noob: "Please, please come out and help us throw the track at 5:30 in the morning. You wont have the work corners and your car will be teched while you work." Then they end up having to work corners because the "run group is short" consistently. And/or have to track down the tech crew to get their car teched (putting up with the "I should charge you $10" joke event after event). And now they get told they have to jump through X hoop and Y hoop to receive the benifits of helping out. Kind of a crappy thing to do to someone who has sacrificed so much to help make the event run smooth.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't help out at the events. But if you are going to reward those people with not having to corner work, then the AX and Corner Working chairs need to commit to, and make a priority of ensuring that the advertised rewards actually become a reward. As it stands right now you can't really use that in your argument for why "we need to have drivers work corners."

Well guys, the system isn't perfect. Sorry you're having such a bad time at the events......

I'll miss this job.......