PCA SDR

AX is our club's entry level event.
My observation is that in some (not all) cases there exists an unfair gap in driver experience between those with hard core racing experience and those without. I'm not talking about big track (TT or DE) experience, I'm referring to do-or-die-win-or-don't-pay-the-mortgage racing.
I've heard "I'll never beat (insert the name here) I might as well forget ever winning my class" more than once at AX, usually from a new-ish participant who we'd like to encourage, and retain. Since a few of our drivers (you know who you are) have extensive racing experience -in some cases professional experience- perhaps they belong in a class of their own. In motorcycle racing, a rider rated expert with one organization entering amateur class at another is called "cherry picking" and gets no respect.
We would prefer entrants to have a lot of fun, and feel that with a bit of practice, they can win their class.

So here's my idea:
How about we add a class to be called "expert class" (or whatever name) so the experienced racers can have fun competing against each other allowing the less experienced competitors to have a chance at winning against drivers of similar skill? Sure, it would be perfect if we could have amateur and expert divisions for every car class, but we don't have near enough entries to make that work.
The proposed rules:
The entries in this class are -
1) lumped into one class regardless of car
2) Ineligible for class points in other than the run-watcha-brung expert class. These drivers have a good idea how -faster-or-slower- their cars compare to the others being run, and it's all just for fun in a parking lot anyway, right?
3) Ineligible for the BRI
4) Still eligible for TTOD
5) Entry in the class is purely voluntary

Is this all a waste of time when we have the option of writing 3000 points on our tech form? Maybe, but that wouldn't remove these drivers from the BRI.
Discussion is invited........

This idea should not be quickly dismissed. In my opinion the concept has merit. Once upon a time, long before many of you were born, I use to autocross as often as possible. Then went hill climbing, then track racing, and in the winter ice racing. Your ride goes from a nice touring car, to barely drivable, to a trailer queen. It is a very slippery and expensive slope.

In the last 5 years I can count the number of autocross events I've done on one hand. Why? Because you have tow to the event, unload, change exhaust, run and at the end of the day reverse the procedure. Autocrossing is fun when you run a stock car. Your most valuable and first upgrade are tires. But our addiction doesn't stop there. Pretty soon we have accumulated a bizillion points and moved up several classes. Worse then that is when we buy a car to run in a specific class. We need rehab!

Some variation of the suggestion is in order. Stock class cars get some form of preferential treatment. Perhaps a 10 second reduction in their time (kind of like some form of bracket racing). Drivers with limited experience get some consideration. I know its sexist, but the Ladies class works. I only know of a few women that are as fast or faster then then their male counterparts in the same car.

I think Dave has a good idea. The way we run it at BMWCCA is that once a person makes instructor, they are no longer able to compete in their respective classes against students. All instructors are lumped into the "Gold Class" and we all "run what 'ya brung". It's just about having a good time

Why leave them out of the BRI? That could be the perfect solution, actually. The way the SCCA Solo program solves this problem is that the National level drivers enter the PAX class only (their equivalent to the BRI) and leave the class competition to the local drivers. They run for time only on the index, against the other advanced drivers, and results list the top times, raw and indexed, but the class competition results (and year-long series points) do not have the PAX drivers included. Why create more classes when we have the BRI (which doesn't count for anything anyway) already set up? All you have to do is allow anyone who wants to "opt out" of the class competition to enter "BRI/XX" as their class and exclude them from the "XX" class results. It might require a little more programming for the results to spit out of the computer correctly, but Tom Brown is a genius with that stuff, and the parameters are clear-cut.

A side effect might be that it would actually allow us (or force us) to develop the BRI more accurately, which would not be a bad thing, IMHO.

TT

I don't see a need for this at all.
We have a Novice class already for drivers who are just getting this figured out.

You want the new guys to have more fun by taking the competition away from the experienced guys...
This does not solve a problem it only exchanges one for the other.

Most newer good drivers are not getting the lap times they think they should be getting due to lack of car preparation. If they prepared their cars better for the class they would be amaized how much better they would place.

I "addopted" several cars/drivers in the early 90's when I was Porsche-less and taught set-up. I got to drive and they got their cars set up for free and instruction how to continue the process when our time was over. They all went from mid pack cars to class winners. All I did was set-up, no instructing.

The only interesting idea I see here is having instructor and non instructor classes, but then that would create the issue of "Drivers" not wanting to become instructors because they will never be able to win their class like they currently can do...

Just shifting one more problem for another...

And I don't understand the theory that a 1 or 2 year guy should be as good as a 10 year guy. Anything worth doing well takes practice. Tell the new guy to do research on driving, set up and get as much seat time as possible. Letting them know they will get a little better at each event should be enough to keep them coming back for more.

When I go mountain biking with my more experienced friends with 10 times the money in their rides I eat their dust because they are better riders, not just because they have more expensive equipment.

When they start handicapping F-1 drivers based upon their time in the sport you may have a point, but until then....

Steve makes a lot of good points about this issue, and I tend to agree with him. When I started autocrossing 12 years ago, the people who dominated my class seemed unassailable and superhuman, yet with seat time and experience, and improvements to my car, I began to pare away the initial 6-10 second deficit between our times slowly. It was easily three or four years before I was able to challenge for a class win. It ain't easy and it takes time, if you don't come from a motorsports background. If there is a danger of losing participants because they are discouraged about someone dominating their class, then "mentoring" and encouraging people to be patient and keep learning/improving is probably the best route.

Looking back at Dave's original comments--"My observation is that in some (not all) cases there exists an unfair gap in driver experience between those with hard core racing experience and those without. I'm not talking about big track (TT or DE) experience, I'm referring to do-or-die-win-or-don't-pay-the-mortgage racing.... Since a few of our drivers (you know who you are) have extensive racing experience -in some cases professional experience- perhaps they belong in a class of their own"--I really don't know that there are that many "professional" racers in our midst, at least of the "do-or-die-win-or-don't-pay-the-mortgage" type. Of the suggested solution, there is an easier, immediate fix that requires no change to classes and meets all the desired outcomes--simply enter the X class. It is included in the TTOD competition but is essentially eliminated from "spoiling" any class competition or the BRI, since it has such a high index it is impossible to compete there.

I have not really seen much evidence that there are pro "ringers" in the club ruining the hopes of newbies so relentlessly as to drive them away, I have only seen people react in the way I did--by seeing the experienced drivers as a challenge and a benchmark for improvement. But if this really is a prevalent, pervasive problem, then voluntarily entering the X class would accomplish all of Dave's goals.

TT

IMHO, the "experienced" drivers aren't all in TTOD capable cars, yet remain highly competitive. like GP and 944 Spec. I clearly remember whining to Dan Chambers 8 years ago that I couldn't get within 10 secs of the guys in my class. Without the benchmark and camaraderie of a larger group , I doubt I'd continue to advance. Most of us "faster" drivers are giving up half our day instructing the newer drivers, setting up, teching, etc. and at the end of the day are satisfied with a 15 cent sticker noting we have won our class. Now you want to diminish that too? We already lost our free instructor day and funding for the drivers dinner. How bout just one or two discouraging hits per season, please. I'm your biggest fan for encouraging the new people and will be there next weekend, volunteering with 50 or so of my friends. You still need to encourage your existing experienced drivers. Without them, there won't be any newbies to encourage. I vote no in case you didn't figure that out

[quote="LUCKY DAVE...So here's my idea:
How about we add a class to be called "expert class" (or whatever name) so the experienced racers can have fun competing against each other ...Discussion is invited........[/quote]

Dave, based on Jackie's comments, you might need to expand your "expert class" into 3 groups, just as we have done with Novice. That might make it more interesting for the everyone with the wide variations in car capabilities. You might consider using the BRI to organize those 3 class of experts. With the older car classes becoming less and less populated, IS, for example is no longer well entered. It would be fun to be in an expert class with an LSS car, for example. When I ran in IS, I was sometimes faster than Kim, and sometimes slower. It just seemed that the track design dictated much of the results. It was the same with 944 Spec.

Initially, I wasn't interested in your idea, but the more I think about it, the more I can see some merit. It might take 4 or 5 expert classes to keep it competitive, but it could be really fun

I am not really sure exactly how things are set up now, but I would rather see the opposite happen. Using a format similar to the "L" subdivision have each class give an optional "N" class for novices and have it based on the number of events that they have competed in. Then those not wanting to go against the long time AXer's can do so, for a season or two depending on where the line is drawn and those not wanting to run "N" can do so at any time. There should be a "hardline" end to the N option though 8 AX's? 16? or...? Personally I prefer running against the "tough" drivers. When (not if ) I win my class I want to do it knowing that I did so against the best the field had to offer that day.

I must drive faster or Mmagus will win the class, Or just dump more money into the car, yes thats it, Need more money

Personally, I think we already have enough new ideas which will scare AX drivers and volunteers away.

We have a system that works why change it. Autocross and DE events are entry level racing and I don't see the purpose of additional classes and complexity. Keep it fun.

If anything simplify and remove the Novices and Ladies classes and leave the rest the way it is (or was a couple years ago).

I agree with those that argue that our system is fine as it stands. For those drivers that are starting, they have currently a target to shoot for when looking at the times from the better drivers and/or the better-prepared cars, class by class. We all went that route and eventually surmounted those early jitters. If anything, something like what Pastor Mark suggests could help their ego as they climb the learning curve, which is to place an N for Novice next to their name in the overall results sheet to signify that they are just beginners. Anybody looking at the results would be able to notice when a Novice driver is able to beat an experienced driver (an incentive) or at least better understand why their result is so poor (a consolation). As Pastor Mark suggests, these Novice drivers would lose the privilege or advantage of having the N next to their name after say, 4 to 8 autocrosses, because by then they would have some driving experience. A similar system could be used when displaying Time-Trial results.

Interesting discussion.
I remember well about 3 years ago when the spread between my time and Kim "Cone" Crosser was around 10 seconds . I looked over his car assuming he surely must be cheating somehow... Nope. I asked others, how do I get there and the answer was always "seat time, PDS, seat time". Well I haven't completely closed the gap yet but now I usually know where I left it. Seat time. I want those fast guys and gals out there. They are my yardstick. Winning in class is fun but learning the sport from others is so much more.

I like the suggestion to simply use a voluntary X class if someone feels they are pro status and sandbagging their class. It's already here and it works. For everyone else, I'll see you in the grid. Bring your game.

Steve Grosekemper wrote:I don't see a need for this at all.
We have a Novice class already for drivers who are just getting this figured out.

You want the new guys to have more fun by taking the competition away from the experienced guys...
This does not solve a problem it only exchanges one for the other.

<snip>

Just shifting one more problem for another...

I agree with Steve.

I'm one of those new guys.
To tell the truth, i don't much care about winning my class or TTOD, (good thing i don't care..............), i go out to improve my skills and have fun.

If other new guys are obsessing about winning class in the first year or two of trying, i think they need to reset their expectations, NOT THE CURRENT RULE STRUCTURE.

cheers

Craig

Two suggestions i do like?
1. Putting the N next to a novices name
and
2. Putting a street tire designation next to those of us who choose to not use R comps or better