PCA SDR

As it was suggested I start a new thread....

What are the thoughts about instructing a new driver at a big track DE? Is it fine, as that is what everybody else does, or unsafe as that is not the way our system works or how our instructors have been taught to teach?

Also, what constitutes a "big track"? The Fontana roval and WSIR, yes. Streets, Fontana infield, Pomana, no. Spring Mountain, Buttonwillow, Chuckwalla???

Let me help you with the description...

Track = not a parking lot laid out with cones...

If you do not think you can get seriously hurt at any of the tracks you mentioned then I don't know what to tell you.
Jad has a valid point and I would not get in a car with a complete novice at 'any' of those tracks. You have no control of their car and
once they lose control, thats it. If I knew them personally for many years that 'might' be an exception.

+1 Jad

I think that the new DE groups will have to be held to much slower speeds with less passing and more basic driving instruction and they will have to come up to speed at a much slower rate than we're used to instructing. Instructors will have to change their mindset and use the skills we were taught at the National DE Instructors school. We will also have to shut the drivers down immediately if they start to push too hard, too soon.

That being said, I would much rather get in a car with someone who I know has already learned basic car control and has had a chance to learn that in a safer (for the car and the driver) environment. It seems that many of the regions that allow total novices have a requirement for a "ground school" to go over the rules, flags, passing zones and techniques and limits to what they should be attempting.

Wait a minute, isn't that what the PDS and DE Schools do?

This is a valid question that needs discussion. Every instructor must have confidence that they are in control of the situation before getting in the car. This is true at an AX as well as a race track. Without a core of willing instructors this sport dies out pretty quickly.

Before making assumptions it might be interesting to get some data to determine what is safe/unsafe. I wonder if PCA National has relevant incident statistics: Number of serious incidents involving "green" DE student drivers losing control at speed vs serious incidents involving experienced drivers losing control at speed over the last 5 years? My own completely unscientific 5 year observation is that "green" students make lots of low speed easy offs and no serious high speed incidents. The big scary car-folding crashes have been entirely experienced drivers (who have been through extensive training) losing control at speed. Some real numbers from PCA National would be useful here to determine if our new Zone 8 DE rules constitute safe practice for drivers and instructors alike.

Isn't the basic car control that you learn at the autocross necessary to be safe on the "big track". Do you really want the 1st experience of oversteer or "coming in too hot" to be on streets or buttonwillow or fontana? Autocross is the safe stepping stone to the track because you get to experience "losing control" in a safe environment where the consequences are only knocking cones around. As a newbie, you learn so much at autocross...."both feet in.....dont try to recover after the 2nd fishtail...look ahead....etc. Its really nice to have had that happen to you multiple times in a parking lot so if (when) it happens at the track you dont panic and know what to do and have felt it before.

Asking the student to start learning basic car control at a racetrack is asking alot for both student and instructor.

mrondeau wrote:I think that the new DE groups will have to be held to much slower speeds with less passing and more basic driving instruction and they will have to come up to speed at a much slower rate than we're used to instructing. Instructors will have to change their mindset and use the skills we were taught at the National DE Instructors school. We will also have to shut the drivers down immediately if they start to push too hard, too soon.

That being said, I would much rather get in a car with someone who I know has already learned basic car control and has had a chance to learn that in a safer (for the car and the driver) environment. It seems that many of the regions that allow total novices have a requirement for a "ground school" to go over the rules, flags, passing zones and techniques and limits to what they should be attempting.

Wait a minute, isn't that what the PDS and DE Schools do?

I think Mark has outlined the main issues.
We have had National DE Instructors School and the instructors who have attended should be capable of teaching a novice at the track.

Yes, you will have to adjust your teaching for the level needed by the students. We have usually had people who have done autocrosses and that allowed the instructor to start pushing earlier. That may not always be the case. It is not more dangerous, but it is different.

Autocross is not universally thought of as a prerequisite for track events. Some think the habits you pick up (10/10ths attack mode) at an autocross will lead to problems when used on the track. We have seen people who were very good autocrossers have difficulty when they transition to the track.

I think that the drivers meetings may need to change, or a separate meeting for the novices to review some safety issues. Not unlike what goes on with the novice racers.

Greg

Having discussed this with others, I think we need to make it MORE of a DE, which means having a pace car to keep things slow and not allow any passing. It should be purely an educational experience, not a race/tt at all. It is the newbie in the GT3 that really scares me. Those cars are ridiculously fast (along with the 997S, twin turbo anything, etc). I just noticed in the back of Road & Track, the performance numbers for a new GT3 are about the same as a Carrera GT and the new GT2 is even faster. How fast do you think a GT2/3 could enter turn 1 at SOW? 120 mph? I can tell you that is a scary corner at 100 mph on hoosiers with a wing and years of experience. I do not want to be teaching in a 3 point with an unknown driver. Will he listen if I say slow down

I love teaching and always like jumping into SAFE cars with people I trust to be reasonable, but ???. Having run the DE school and PDS school, I can assure you some of our instructors only know one way to instruct and they do not care to learn a new method. I do not feel I am a very good instructor for a complete novice as I teach how to go fast better than I teach the joy of driving on the track at 50% ( yes insert peanut gallery comments here - Dan) and that is how we instructors have learned to teach and drive big tracks.

I think this method CAN work, I just worry it is not how we DO work in this club. I think we need to set a lot more clear rules NOT just say it is a DE run group and treat it just like all the other run groups in hopes of increasing attendance. A few crashes will really hurt attendance.

Jad wrote: Will he listen if I say slow down

The answer to this has to be "yes." Whatever it takes to assert the instructor's authority must be done, whether this takes place in the driver's meeting or in the first exchange between student and instructor, or both. Students must understand that the instructor is not just along for a joyride, but there to direct the student's activity in every aspect of the session. The penalty for ignoring instructions should be clearly articulated from the start--play by the rules or go home. If you say "keep the speeds down until you show me you can consistently drive the line," the student had better keep things slow and precise until you tell them they can pick up the pace. If you say "pull off the track, we need to talk," the student should be looking for the pit exit immediately.

It may be that our procedures do need to be modified to match the possible infusion of inexperienced drivers at DE/TT events. If someone has never been on a big track, or is even new to a particular one, it would not be unreasonable to dedicate their first session to a "ducks in a row" exercise at reduced speed to learn the line, check out track conditions, obstacles, corner stations, etc. A separate driver's meeting to establish ground rules for student conduct (reinforcing the instructor's authority over their participation) as well as basic safety/flag/passing procedures, etc., might be appropriate and necessary. Certainly, the initial "interview" of the student by the instructor to determine experience and goals for the event should include a reference or two about the seriousness of what is about to take place and who is in charge, without scaring them to death or sounding like a hard-as$. The simple truth is: if they are not allowed on the track without an instructor, and no instructor will get in their car with them, they are SOL.

Remember what Pete Tremper said: "Other sports may beckon." Not everyone who wants to try driving on a big track will be cut out for it. We can't be afraid to tell them so if they are not paying attention or responding correctly to instructions.

TT

I think most people reacted as I did saying no way when this was brought up.

This new program has been in the planning stages for quite some time and this is not a rash solution to some attendance issue.

As this program evolves and a solid game plan is put to paper it will be put up onthe website for everyone to see.
I think when everyone sees the big picture they will see this is a huge improvement to our overall driving program.
The biggest problem as I see it is not the students but our instructor corps that teaches to go faster instead of driving better.
(I am as guilty as anyone on this account)
We need to restructure the entire "Education" part of Driver Education; and that is what this new program is all about.

I for one am looking forward to a change that will make for a safer, better trained group of drivers.

Question. Do you first need to have completed any autocross events?

John

John Straub wrote:Question. Do you first need to have completed any autocross events?

John

Answer, NO

Greg

So exactly what is the difference between the "de" group and the tt group??? As far as I am aware according to the rules, the difference is the DE group can't do timed runs and has zero safety or experience requirements. Doesn't this seem a bit silly considering instructors were not even allowed to know our times last year?

Help me understand the difference as you see it Tom and Greg?

I am not being negative here, i really want to know for a few reasons I will explain later.

Zero safety requirements is wrong -- safety requirements are the same as for TT.

Also, it's a long story, but for next year time trials can have practice lap timing again, which is why they still have prior experience requirements for novices.

So that is a difference between the two. And of course, DE people don't get any timed runs.

That is really the only difference in the rules. However, the event team is planning a more instructional program for the DE run groups, above and beyond what the rules mandate.

I can see this happening only if we re-instruct the instructors and have some definite guidlines for instructors/students to follow. Both Mark and Tom make valid points on how to handle students if these changes happen.
I've only been instructing for about a year now and still need more seat time as an instructor but it seems most instructors I've ever had have been the Go-Faster-brake harder type, which I don't push when I'm instructing.
Are these changes going to happen in 2011?
More details.. thanks