PCA SDR

Ok - minor rant for comments.

Why I recommend eliminating parade laps.

1. The first two corner working sessions are half again as long as the last two (18 laps per car vs 12 laps per car).
2. The corner working/driving schedule means that the last instructor cars START their last practice lap just ahead of the parade lap of their student. So they have to complete their last lap (1.5-2 minutes), then park and get into the student's car (2-3 minutes?) and get back to the track before the parade lap group is done. The result - either the parade lap start is held up waiting for people to get in line, or the parade lap finish is extended as the stragglers get there, or people miss their parade lap. Result = delays and dead time.
3. If you are held up and join your group a bit late, either you miss one of your practice laps OR the next parade lap has to be held up while the stragglers from the previous group finish their practice laps. When there is NO parade lap, the stragglers simply merge with the beginning of the next group, and the track stays hot.
4. Despite repeated pleas for spacing at the finish, parade laps frequently cause the timing to miss a car, requiring someone (often me) to run to the trailer to "fix" timing.

Why can't we go to a simple 5 - 5 - 4 sequence?
No parade lap means:
* No need to wait for everyone in a particular run group to get there
* We can keep the track hot continuously - avoid delays
* Even out the corner working times (the timed runs often do stretch due to re-runs, and there is arguably more work, so 5-5-4 is fair)
* Anyone who wants to run the first lap very slowly can do so - just tell the starter

I disagree that the parade lap does anything to prep the student. I will bet more of their focus is on the car(s) in front of them than on the track, and (IMO) playing follow-the-leader isn't the way to learn the line when you are following other students.

+1 Kim. No parade laps.

I also think that based on time of the first run groups that 5-5-4 should be changed on the fly., 5-4-4 , 5-3-4 etc. This way you are allowing for re-runs etc. and should finish in the 5pm time frame. I am one of the ones who did not complete my timed runs a couple of events ago , due to 2 groups left to run at about 4:50pm and I couldn't stay. Dont get me wrong , more laps are better , but getting done by 5 is better yet... IMHO.

Kim Crosser wrote:Ok - minor rant for comments.

Why I recommend eliminating parade laps.

1. The first two corner working sessions are half again as long as the last two (18 laps per car vs 12 laps per car).
2. The corner working/driving schedule means that the last instructor cars START their last practice lap just ahead of the parade lap of their student. So they have to complete their last lap (1.5-2 minutes), then park and get into the student's car (2-3 minutes?) and get back to the track before the parade lap group is done. The result - either the parade lap start is held up waiting for people to get in line, or the parade lap finish is extended as the stragglers get there, or people miss their parade lap. Result = delays and dead time.
3. If you are held up and join your group a bit late, either you miss one of your practice laps OR the next parade lap has to be held up while the stragglers from the previous group finish their practice laps. When there is NO parade lap, the stragglers simply merge with the beginning of the next group, and the track stays hot.
4. Despite repeated pleas for spacing at the finish, parade laps frequently cause the timing to miss a car, requiring someone (often me) to run to the trailer to "fix" timing.

Why can't we go to a simple 5 - 5 - 4 sequence?
No parade lap means:
* No need to wait for everyone in a particular run group to get there
* We can keep the track hot continuously - avoid delays
* Even out the corner working times (the timed runs often do stretch due to re-runs, and there is arguably more work, so 5-5-4 is fair)
* Anyone who wants to run the first lap very slowly can do so - just tell the starter

I disagree that the parade lap does anything to prep the student. I will bet more of their focus is on the car(s) in front of them than on the track, and (IMO) playing follow-the-leader isn't the way to learn the line when you are following other students.

+1. Parade laps are a waste of time and contribute to losing more time during the morning sessions which are already hectic as it is. From an instructional point of view, they do very little to help newbies (or others) learn the track. Less laps rewards those who start slowly and pay attention to the track so that they can learn it quickly. There is also less wear and tear on the track (each additional lap X 80+ cars). I rarely take all 5 laps during the first two sessions and try to skip the parade lap as well. That's just my opinion, YMMV.

Okay no more parade laps.
I was going to do a poll that the next autocross to see what everybody thinks.
All negative e-mails will be forwarded to Kim's mailbox.

JERRY B wrote:Okay no more parade laps.
I was going to do a poll that the next autocross to see what everybody thinks.
All negative e-mails will be forwarded to Kim's mailbox.

DANG it Jerry...

Ya had to go and steal my thunder... the first thing I planned on doing as Lead AX chair next year was to make that change!

Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail... Ding... You've got mail...

Seriously - thank you, Jerry!

Thanks Jerry, you made my day with the decision of eliminating the parade lap. We will push on eliminating the 5th practice lap issue another time.

JERRY B wrote:Okay no more parade laps.
I was going to do a poll that the next autocross to see what everybody thinks.
All negative e-mails will be forwarded to Kim's mailbox.

Jerry, go with your gut - take the poll.

Well if this no parade lap thing works out, Then we could try no practice lap during timed runs, If that works out we could eliminate the middle run session, And then the first-run session.

Then we could have beer by noon
We will be needing a beer sponsor

Jerry and Mark you "caved-in" to the pressure too fast on eliminating the Parade Lap. There has to be some pro's to all the con's listed.
1. For those who have disabilities and cannot walk the track, it is only fair to have a parade lap.
2. Even if you walk the track, the parade lap from the drivers seat gives an entirely different perspective from walking the track.
3. As a perpetual "instructor in training" I have practiced teaching a student in a parade lap. Much easier to discuss looking ahead, turn in points, track out areas, full gas, braking zones, pointing out corner workers, other safety issues.
4. A parade lap takes 2 minutes, give or take a few minutes, X 6 run groups, so an additional 12 to 15 minutes to the day.
5. I am sure less experienced drivers and new students would agree that a Parade lap is worth the extra time.

Although I may be in the minority, perhaps a poll should be taken at the next autocross, not just online, because most of the drivers online are experienced drivers who feel they dont need a Parade lap.

Angela Avitt, Membership Chair
Car # 425

Hi Angela, my responses to your points:

Aavitt wrote:1. For those who have disabilities and cannot walk the track, it is only fair to have a parade lap.

Maybe, but why not just drive the first lap slower as a parade lap. Nothing says you have to drive the first lap at full speed.

Aavitt wrote:2. Even if you walk the track, the parade lap from the drivers seat gives an entirely different perspective from walking the track.

True, but when you are closely following a car in front, you have to have some focus on that car, rather than on the track. I see cars in parade laps "chasing" others, and it seems like you are either having to back off because you caught the real slow guy in front, or you have to speed up because you have someone on your bumper. Driving the first lap slower with NO traffic seems like a better way to learn the track.

Aavitt wrote:3. As a perpetual "instructor in training" I have practiced teaching a student in a parade lap. Much easier to discuss looking ahead, turn in points, track out areas, full gas, braking zones, pointing out corner workers, other safety issues.

How is that different on a parade lap than in any other lap? Those are the techniques that we are teaching on every lap (I hope).

Aavitt wrote:4. A parade lap takes 2 minutes, give or take a few minutes, X 6 run groups, so an additional 12 to 15 minutes to the day.

Actually, this is the big problem. Yes, the parade lap (once it gets started) should only take a few minutes, but if you start a Student run group parade lap right after the last driver in the preceding group (which is by definition their Instructor group), those last cars need at least 4-5 more minutes to do their last practice lap, park, change cars, and get out to the parade lap, and then drive it. Each parade lap is really taking more like 8-10 minutes per group (think an extra hour in the day, not 12-15 minutes). With a parade lap, we cannot mix drivers from different groups, so we wind up having to wait for the preceding group to completely finish (including late starters, who might be a little late through no fault of their own), then start the parade lap and wait for everyone to get their parade lap in before we can start regular laps. This is at least as bad as the breaks we have switching groups in timed runs when there are re-runs.

Aavitt wrote:5. I am sure less experienced drivers and new students would agree that a Parade lap is worth the extra time.

Maybe, but again - why not just take the first lap at the pace you want, but without any traffic. Just tell the starter you want a little extra time. I do this at various times when instructing when I want to go a bit slower to focus on a couple of important turns at a measured pace.

I do understand the dilemma of rushing to get to the parade lap. Have we had parade laps at every AX recently? This year and last? Maybe it was not a big issue last year because of the low numbers at the AX events. Well maybe we can go with 6-5-4, all fast laps!

Angela Avitt
#425

Aavitt wrote:Jerry and Mark you "caved-in" to the pressure too fast on eliminating the Parade Lap. There has to be some pro's to all the con's listed.
1. For those who have disabilities and cannot walk the track, it is only fair to have a parade lap.
2. Even if you walk the track, the parade lap from the drivers seat gives an entirely different perspective from walking the track.
3. As a perpetual "instructor in training" I have practiced teaching a student in a parade lap. Much easier to discuss looking ahead, turn in points, track out areas, full gas, braking zones, pointing out corner workers, other safety issues.
4. A parade lap takes 2 minutes, give or take a few minutes, X 6 run groups, so an additional 12 to 15 minutes to the day.
5. I am sure less experienced drivers and new students would agree that a Parade lap is worth the extra time.

Although I may be in the minority, perhaps a poll should be taken at the next autocross, not just online, because most of the drivers online are experienced drivers who feel they dont need a Parade lap.

Angela Avitt, Membership Chair
Car # 425

Angela, I'll respond to these one at a time. I would like to note that this is not a rant against you or any of our hard working chairs and volunteers. I applaud all of your efforts.

1. Unlike SCCA and Parade, we allow bikes, skateboards, etc. on the track walk. The track walk is supposed to be at a slow speed so that you can study the track and discover SOME of it's potential nuances.
2. The parade lap does give a different perspective. It's usually the bumper of the car ahead of you and the dirt and rocks that are flying up and hitting your hood and windshield.
3. An instructor should be able to do that during the first couple of laps in the first session anyway. If you can't, your student MAY be driving too fast.
4. A parade lap takes about two minutes from the time the first car leaves until the first few cars finish. Most of the time lost during parade laps is getting everyone there, especially for the 2nd through 6th run sessions, and holding those sessions up while the previous session finishes up. In real terms, each parade lap takes an average of about 10 minutes. Add that hour to the additional 5 laps during the morning session and you've eaten up a huge amount of time and worn out your first two corner working groups. In the past, we would merge the sessions. If Red run group was finishing up and White run group was called up, they just merged. No waiting, no down track time, etc. The parade lap makes that practice impossible in the morning and that seems to carry over to the rest of the day.
5. Less experienced drivers and new students get the least out of the parade lap because they are busy watching the car ahead of them instead of the track ahead of them.

In my opinion, and that's all it is, it is much easier to learn a track when you are not distracted by other cars and can focus on the track. 1st lap should be fairly slow (5/10's maximum). Look at the track ahead of you. Try to look 2 corners ahead so that you're not surprised by the flow of the track. Pick out your initial turn in, apex and track out points. Find the corner working stations. As you take the other 3 laps in that run session, slowly build up your speed and refine your line. Think about what you discovered that session during your next break, corner working duties or ride along with your instructor. Use that information to improve your line and braking points. Some tracks are easier to learn than others. Talk to others. Really pay attention to what other drivers are doing when you're corner working. Ask for the busiest corner. It's probably the one that's giving you trouble too. 6 laps driven too fast and without paying attention are much less educational than 3 laps driven slowly and deliberately.

There's a reason that many of the experienced drivers don't want a parade lap. It doesn't do anything for us and extends an already long day.

I'll step down from my soap box now and have a frosty micro-brew.

Aavitt wrote:Jerry and Mark you "caved-in" to the pressure too fast on eliminating the Parade Lap.

Hi Angela and everyone,

I can see from the abruptness of the posts I made here that it would seem that I "caved in". Sorry that there was not much context. Soooooo, here is a bit of background.

I do greatly value the thoughts of others, on both sides of this. The reson Jerry titled this thread "redux" is perhaps because this topic has been discussed in the forum before. During that thread/time I read the posts carefully, then talked personally to people whose expertice and abilities I respect, folks from both camps of thought. After a couple of weeks of consideration I came to feel that we should not have parade laps. However while I am the AX-Co-Chair, in my mind since its my first year, Jerry is the lead Chair. I discussed it with him and he felt that we should have them so, out of respect for his leadership, I held my opinon. As I stated my intent at the begining of next year, when I take lead, was to drop the parade laps, in fact it was at the top of my list.

I hope this helps some,

Mark