Racing is one of the only sports......

[Tim Comeau]

where talent guarantees you nothing.
Think about that.

[Dan Chambers]

Hmmm. Based on my converstaions with Jad about the Club Racing scene, and what I've personally observed, I'd have to agree. I watched the races Sunday of FOS, and ..... you can have it!

Sure, there are skilled club racers/wheel-to-wheel drivers out there. Definitely. But the amount of Huevos vs. Brains that I observed indicates to me I'll have more fun at TT's than trying my luck at wheel to wheel. I like the idea of skill as measured by the clock, not how effective I might scare the other guy off the line and into a lower position.

And at the end of the day, I can drive my car home without a scratch .... okay, maybe a cone mark.

That's just one man's opinion. I know there are others.

[JHPGT3]

Each to his own, but I disagree.
As someone who has had some success in POC in both TTs and Club Racing, my take is that making any comparison between the two would be like comparing your children. They are each very different and each have excellent qualities all their own.
I love the TTs, do all of them that I can, help out on the grid, and won my Class last year (in POC). They offer the only opportunity to get an unhampered fast lap and to set a track record. It's just you against the clock with no assistance from others (as to line or drafting). There's a definite adenalin rush waiting your turn and knowing the whole week-end boils down to 2 fast laps. Very exciting, and most TTers are great fun to be around which adds to the overall enjoyment of the event.
Having said that, there's no thrill IMO quite like getting the green flag and barreling into the first turn surrounded by Class mates, jockeying for position and then trying to gain position over 15-25 laps. There's a certain primitive/animal quality to racing that stirs most of us and that doesn't quite exist in TTs. It's like a hunt --having your competitors in your sights, tracking them down and then executing a coup de gras(sp) with a perfect pass. The adrenalin seems to flow much more freely in racing and, at least in the case of POC, it flows four times per week-end with Qualifying and racing both Sat. and Sun.for a total of 1 1/2 hours or so of adenalin rush!!
On any given day and in any given sport, "talent" may guarantee you nothing, but in Club Racing, over time, "talent" means everything. There are endless examples to prove the point. If you really want to see where "talent" means nothing, check out the AR Class in PCA where huge differences are allowed between cars (e.g. in power/weight)and the less talented driver can easily win TTOD in addition to the Class!(I'm not in any way saying this has happened --only that the Rules make it easily possible).
As far as carnage, we've all seen it in both TTs and Club Racing. In TT's it's always your own fault. And, in Racing, it could be someone elses fault. That is a difference! Fortunately it doesn't happen very often if you race with the right group, and "running with the right group" is key because it assures that your track mates value their cars and personal safety as much as you(and have had the same training you've had). Even so, sh*t does happen (I'm reminded of a buddy who got hit in the head by a golf ball last summer). The question is, are the risks in racing worth the rewards. Personally, I believe they ARE given the precautions referred to earlier..
Just another perspective, guys. Couldn't let your comments go unanswered.

[Jad]

Since I am in the middle of this already, I will chime in. While I agree with almost everything, and there is a chance you get hit on the way to the track, doing the math from every event I have seen, both POC and PCA, the chances of bent metal are WAY higher in club racing than TT's. At Fontana, I can think of about a dozen cars that were bent club racing, but not a single TT car. I would say that the adreniline rush of the perfect pass leads directly to ill advised attempts that result in about 10X more accidents.

I am not saying club racing isn't great, but I am too cheap and worry too much about my car and my body to really enjoy myself. Much like to me winning in Vegas is not as much a rush as the down of losing, so I am not a gambler. The more chances you take, the better you will do in club racing, until you "lose on a gamble", and then you, and probably someone else, need a new car

[Tim Comeau]

Hey all good points guys, and more importantly, each is an original point of view based on one's own experiences and one's own goals as to what they want to get out of performance driving.

BUT, what I was getting at is that our sport is different from most in that "talent guarantees you nothing", whereas in others, it's THE most important thing. If you have a racket, a pair of good shoes and some white shorts, and some real talent, you can be a pro tennis player. Set of good clubs and some real talent, you can beat Tiger Woods.
In racing, talent is no where near enough. You HAVE to have buckets of money before you can even get to the pro racing level. It's just like that.
It's really evident when I see boneheaded moves from people driving at the pro level, who I know are in that race because they just bought a seat, not because they had some real talent. That's just the way it is.......
And we all know that there's some guy driving a milk truck up in Ramona who's way faster than all of us, but never got to put his talent to use because of the money thing. Sad. Can't help but feel that our sport is missing some stellar performances.
Not so much complaining as just making a painful observation.
It makes me really want to support and foster young drivers with real talent. Seeing their strong racing talent is a dramatically powerful thing to me and it just seems like the right thing to do to push them to a higher level. They deserve to be racing because they have driving talent, not because they could afford a seat in a race.
That's what I meant.

[Tim Comeau]

BTW, anybody see Lewis Hamilton in the F1 race at Malaysia. Great dicing for once in F1! He was racing so intelligently! Really manhandled Massa...while allowing his race-leading teammate to drive off over the horizon.

[Tawfik]

Looking at those 2 failed passes, I would say Massa is the Rookie and Hamilton the better driver.

PS: Can I bring my milk truck to the next AX?

[kurquhart]

In the post-race interviews, Hamilton stated that he set Massa up to brake too late, implying that he suckered Massa into messing up. Appeared to have worked perfectly.

[JHPGT3]

Hey all good points guys, and more importantly, each is an original point of view based on one's own experiences and one's own goals as to what they want to get out of performance driving.

BUT, what I was getting at is that our sport is different from most in that "talent guarantees you nothing", whereas in others, it's THE most important thing. If you have a racket, a pair of good shoes and some white shorts, and some real talent, you can be a pro tennis player. Set of good clubs and some real talent, you can beat Tiger Woods.
In racing, talent is no where near enough. You HAVE to have buckets of money before you can even get to the pro racing level. It's just like that.
It's really evident when I see boneheaded moves from people driving at the pro level, who I know are in that race because they just bought a seat, not because they had some real talent. That's just the way it is.......
And we all know that there's some guy driving a milk truck up in Ramona who's way faster than all of us, but never got to put his talent to use because of the money thing. Sad. Can't help but feel that our sport is missing some stellar performances.
Not so much complaining as just making a painful observation.
It makes me really want to support and foster young drivers with real talent. Seeing their strong racing talent is a dramatically powerful thing to me and it just seems like the right thing to do to push them to a higher level. They deserve to be racing because they have driving talent, not because they could afford a seat in a race.
That's what I meant.

OK, NOW, I understand your point, and I agree with you. In racing talent "ALONE", is not enough. You have to have $$ to even learn to race, unlike most other sports which are far less expensive!! I forget who I'm quoting, but someone well before me said, "whoever said racing and Porsches were cheap"?
Combine the two and, yes, you're talking buckets of $$ that either require deep pockets or lotsa sacrifice!!

[kary]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

It is like anything in life, if you focus on the negative aspects of something, you will end up there, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. If one is thinking that way, negatively, they do not belong there. One who is focused on the objective of racing or TT will not focus on the wrong objective. They will infact be alert and prepared for what is happening, thus their odds of negative outcomes will be far less than those that focus on negative outcomes. If you are not in the zone, you should not be there, where ever that is or what ever that is. I skipped the last event because I was not in the zone and I knew that...I would have been focusing on the wrong things, be those negative or other things. More importantly, I do not want to be on a track with those that are focused on the wrong things, you should not be there if you are focused on the wrong things or do not believe in what the activity you are participating.

[kary]

BUT, what I was getting at is that our sport is different from most in that "talent guarantees you nothing", whereas in others, it's THE most important thing. If you have a racket, a pair of good shoes and some white shorts, and some real talent, you can be a pro tennis player. Set of good clubs and some real talent, you can beat Tiger Woods.

You obviously have not known families that have sold their house, their life savings, and anything else they had to get their kids proper coaching for tennis or golf or gymnastics, it goes on and on. It takes money, talent, and some luck. Are some more capital inventment oriented than others, yes, but your examples all require lots and lots of money Tim.

[Mike]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

Yeah boneheads are everywhere (I've been a bonehead before too), but TT risks for car to car contact are not the same as w2w .
Point by passing, designated passing areas (no w2w in corners and brake zones) and no competitve reason to pass help to reduce TT incidents.

[kary]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

Yeah boneheads are everywhere (I've been a bonehead before too), but TT risks for car to car contact are not the same as w2w .
Point by passing, designated passing areas (no w2w in corners and brake zones) and no competitve reason to pass help to reduce TT incidents.

Mike, not my point but agree with yours....

[Jad]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

It is like anything in life, if you focus on the negative aspects of something, you will end up there, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. If one is thinking that way, negatively, they do not belong there. One who is focused on the objective of racing or TT will not focus on the wrong objective. They will infact be alert and prepared for what is happening, thus their odds of negative outcomes will be far less than those that focus on negative outcomes. If you are not in the zone, you should not be there, where ever that is or what ever that is. I skipped the last event because I was not in the zone and I knew that...I would have been focusing on the wrong things, be those negative or other things. More importantly, I do not want to be on a track with those that are focused on the wrong things, you should not be there if you are focused on the wrong things or do not believe in what the activity you are participating.

Kary, I disagree. I think it would be hard to say I am negative about racing or focus on the negatives. I really enjoyed my first race, then in race two, there were two incidents that were VERY close to major contact in the first 1.5 laps. It was at that point I came to the conclusion that the negatives outwayed the positives for me and I just let a car pass when it got close that almost hit me on lap 1.5 instead of trying to race again. I did have a good clean battle at the end of the race which was fun, but the reality had already set in for me. Before the race, my concern was mainly could the car stay cool being pushed that hard for 30 minutes, after the race I was more concerned for my fenders and myself. I almost didn't run the enduro. To be fair, it would have been a much different experience were it not for the first 1.5 laps of race two, as the rest was quite fun.

[gulf911]

From my personal observations, most of the guys in the POC , if they wad up their cars they can rebuild it without a blink of the eye. If it breaks its fixed before the next race. If I am out on the track with them who do you thinks going to have a mental advantage?

I will say if money were not an object I would be racing every chance I could. Mick Rosen and I would talk about what is better playing (music) in front of a lot of people or racing.... I can tell you from personal experience (a few years ago a band I was in opened for Robin Trower) , while it is a close second , its just way more fun....to beat Jad....