Beer hostage

[MTrotter]

I never get angry mike.

[oregonduckman]

Personally I am always happy to help out whenever I can, to me it is all about the shared experience and the opportunity to learn from much better drivers by watching and listening. BTW my reaction is not knee jerk just common sense. My experience is that PCA SDR is a wonderful group of people, it is just the mix of driving events and even a little bit of alcohol that seems unwise. I apologize if I offended anyone but not sorry for co-opting this thread to raise the issue.

[Gary Burch]

If you don't want a beer don't have one,
if you don't want to load the trailer, leave early,
or at least get out of the way

[John Straub]

That's what I do.

FYI...that was talked about at a Board Meeting a little over a year ago.

[SDGT3]

In my short time with PCASDR I have found most of the members to be extremely generous with their time and help out in everyway they can including, but not limited to volunteering for chair positions, instructing, generally helping out with minor trailer duties and even fixing members cars when something has gone wrong at an autocross or time trial. I even appreciate the regular photographers like Greg Phillips that document all that is going on event after event and ask nothing in return. It is these indivduals that make the entire group what it is today and appeals to those who might have trepidation when deciding to join or not.

As it relates to the beer after an event, on the surface it does appear odd, but this is a time for members to come together after a hard fought battle on track and talk about what may or may not have been. My experience has shown that there is no one MORE conscience of the consequences of driving impaired than those in the motorsports community. In fact, it is frowned upon to OVER indulge in front of others in our little hobby when it comes to drinking and driving.

Let's keep it fun and safe, that's why we're all here.

[Dan Chambers]

Here's my last idea:

1)Place the beer in a tub in the truck before the crew goes out to pick up the track, at the end of the day. Fill the truck with cones, covering the beer.

2) When the cones are out of the truck and fast asleep inside the trailer, the beer will be exposed for all to enjoy, and the brunt/grunt of the trailer duties are half over.

3) Oh yeah: Those people who happen to be in the truck while loading the track cones have access to the cold ones first. Hmmmm. Now there's incentive to go out in the truck and pick up the track. Yeah ... incentive ... that's the ticket!

See you on the 26th.

[ronaldtrotter]

I started it because three people were always loading the trailer. While 50 were standing around or having to be asked to move because they were in the way. When they could have so simply picked up an item and taken it to the trailer. The faster the trailer gets loaded the faster the drinks come out. It's that simple.

[Mike]

Is there something wrong with Greg's suggestion to have an end of event trailer crew.
Seems someone would be willing to forgo corner working to do this?
Has this concept failed already?
Because it sounds like you’re not pleased with your current solution of relying on un-assigned/random people to pack the trailer.
(imho have paid corner workers fill the trailer, I just wanna drive, not pick up cones.)
Why block Greg's suggestion?
What if you could have both, trailer packed during happy hour?

[oregonduckman]

How about the person (n persons) who picks up the most cones or loads the trailer the fastest gets a freebie for the next AutoX, put the competitive spirit to good use...

[Dan Chambers]

Is there something wrong with Greg's suggestion to have an end of event trailer crew.
Seems someone would be willing to forgo corner working to do this?
Has this concept failed already?
Because it sounds like you’re not pleased with your current solution of relying on un-assigned/random people to pack the trailer.
(imho have paid corner workers fill the trailer, I just wanna drive, not pick up cones.)
Why block Greg's suggestion?
What if you could have both, trailer packed during happy hour?

A simple answer: how do you monitor who loads the trailer, and absolve them from corner-working before the end of the day? Do you take them on their word that they will in fact work after the day is over?

Sounds like, essentially, you're asking (or, Greg is asking) the Corner-Working Chairs to monitor and be responsible for the crews loading the Trailer at the end of the day, based on their commitment and absolution from corner working. I think the Corner Working Chairs have it really, really tough as it is. Do they need yet another task?

IMHO: It also defeats the value of Corner Working as a learning/teaching tool. We had more than one student at the PDS say how valuable corner working was for understanding and learning the track. I don't think throwing corner working under the bus and burdening the Corner Working Chairs is the solution to the Trailer Loading volunteerism problem.

Any other ideas of how to inspire volunteersim at the end of the day?

And ... to your question about Happy Hour and loading the Trailer symultaineously: that's how we have it now, with "adjustments" to when one or the other starts. My only concern is: which gets loaded faster, the Trailer or the drivers?

[KeithV]

Seems very odd to me that the end of an organized driving event is celebrated by drinking alcohol. I do drink but I do not drive after words because one never knows how even the smallest amount of alcohol can effect one's judgment.

As driving enthusiasts I think that we should be an example to our community of good judgment when driving and especially since young people attend the events and see the adults drinking then driving which is the worst example possible.

Beer and Wine after a driving event seems very odd to me since we all know that drinking and driving are a deadly combination. Would the club consider doing away with the tradition in light of the tragedies that have effected so many families in our community? Perhaps this should be a point of discussion at a board meeting?

Oregonduckman, Nobody is advocating drinking and driving. We are adults and the club treats us as such. Your argument for not allowing club members the choice of drinking alcoholic or non alcoholic beverage after driving events appears to be based on you believing that this option should not be available because it could lead to members driving under the influence.

In the past SDR have had strong letters of complaint from people using similar logic to yours and saying that allowing Porsche owners to learn how to drive their cars at the limits of perfomance should be banned as it is likely to cause Porsche owners to drive at the limits on public roads, is irresponsible and may cause an increase in road deaths and injuries. Take it a step or two further, we should all drive cars restricted to 65 mph - because that is the maximum speed according to national law.

This beer after events issue has been discussed by the SDR board of directors before, and to date logic has prevailed.

I agree (and more so) with a post earlier saying that your response is a knee-jerk military overreaction.

I completely disagree with your comment about young people attending the events seeing the adults drinking then driving is the worst example possible - PURELY because after our events they can see that we are fully aware of the gravity of drinking and driving - we are being an excellent example of good judgment to our community by taking the issue seriously and exercising moderation accordingly.

In many countries drinking wine or beer at a family meal is part of growing up - ALONG with recognizing the responsibility of doing so in moderation which instills an attitude of adult responsibility - it is not a huge deal. In the US where drinking is banned until 21, it has been proven that there is significantly more abuse by minors due to the fact that they have not been exposed to an environment where adults demonstrate responsible drinking (check any frat house at any college in the USA).

The "ban everything that bears any risk of danger" approach - which I am fully aware is NOT what you are advocating - has been shown to have significant detrimental effect in making any "taboo" activity more attractive to minors and leads them to hide their activity from the rest of the community. It is this mindset which advocates not talking to teenagers about sex or drugs or aids etc. etc.

IMHO taking the beer choice away from SDR members, like tightening up gunlaws to stop ilegal gun use?????? is definitely not the answer.

[oregonduckman]

Hey Keith thanks for your thoughts on this issue. First let me say that my response is not a "knee-jerk military overreaction" but one I have thought about ever since I joined the club about 1 year ago. Before posting my thoughts I spent some time talking to people in the San Diego community from various walks of life and many professions about this issue and all have agreed that responsible adults should set the best possible example for our young people by not showing them that it is OK to drink and drive. Please let me respond to your points one at a time:

1."Your argument for not allowing club members the choice of drinking alcoholic or non alcoholic beverage after driving events appears to be based on you believing that this option should not be available because it could lead to members driving under the influence." The California Highway Patrol (http://www.chp.ca.gov/community/dui_awareness.html), MADD (http://www.madd.org/Drunk-Driving/Drunk ... -Week.aspx), and the AMA (http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload ... ndrive.pdf) all advocate eliminating alcohol related traffic fatalities by teaching that drinking and driving is inherently dangerous and should be discouraged especially when young people are exposed to the behavior.

2. "I completely disagree with your comment about young people attending the events seeing the adults drinking then driving is the worst example possible" Please see the citations in 1.

3. "In many countries drinking wine or beer at a family meal is part of growing up". True but when driving after words is thrown into the mix bad things can happen (please see the study conducted by the European Commission here http://www.ias.org.uk/resources/papers/ ... usions.pdf). I have personally spent quite a bit of time in Europe (Germany in particular) and have seen some pretty spectacular alcohol related wrecks on the Autobahn. In Germany drinking and driving is now banned completely (http://berlin.angloinfo.com/countries/g ... p#Drinking & Driving)

4. The "ban everything that bears any risk of danger" approach: I agree that is why education and setting good examples are so important especially to our youth.

5. "IMHO taking the beer choice away from SDR members, like tightening up gunlaws to stop ilegal gun use??????" The gun analogy isn't. Furthermore, as a gun advocate who enjoys his freedom to own firearms I was taught that with gun ownership comes responsible behavior including setting a good example for young people whether at the gun range or out hunting and never mix alcohol and firearms (my sentences run on).


I hope I have shed some light on the issue...

[Gary Burch]

Drinking responsibly is not as difficult as you make it seem, Mr. Duckman. Rationalizing the benefits and the moral lessons of gun ownership is a little more difficult. I know,I know, " I am a responsible gun owner!" That's what they all say. Drunk driving is a major problem. Having a beer after an autocross does not condone or support this. The guy that shot his wife and kids the other day, doesn't speak for all the gun owners out there, at least I hope not. The thing is, cars have a number of uses, guns have only one.

[mrondeau]

This beer after events issue has been discussed by the SDR board of directors before, and to date logic has prevailed.

I completely disagree with your comment about young people attending the events seeing the adults drinking then driving is the worst example possible - PURELY because after our events they can see that we are fully aware of the gravity of drinking and driving - we are being an excellent example of good judgment to our community by taking the issue seriously and exercising moderation accordingly.

In many countries drinking wine or beer at a family meal is part of growing up - ALONG with recognizing the responsibility of doing so in moderation which instills an attitude of adult responsibility - it is not a huge deal. In the US where drinking is banned until 21, it has been proven that there is significantly more abuse by minors due to the fact that they have not been exposed to an environment where adults demonstrate responsible drinking (check any frat house at any college in the USA).

The "ban everything that bears any risk of danger" approach - which I am fully aware is NOT what you are advocating - has been shown to have significant detrimental effect in making any "taboo" activity more attractive to minors and leads them to hide their activity from the rest of the community. It is this mindset which advocates not talking to teenagers about sex or drugs or aids etc. etc.

IMHO taking the beer choice away from SDR members, like tightening up gunlaws to stop ilegal gun use?????? is definitely not the answer.

I agree with the above statements and would add that there is typically not enough beer or wine at the events for someone to become intoxicated on.

Porsche owners who participate in our driving events are generally more responsible, successful and aware of the consequences of their actions then the average person. I haven't seen or been made aware of a PCA event where there was an issue with over indulgence of alcohol.

I personally value my life, the lives of others, my career and my Porsche's too much to risk them to an avoidable accident or arrest. I feel that many others in the club share this view point. I know that if I do want to drink more than one or two beers at any event, that I can and will make arrangements for alternative transportation (often this consists of Katina driving).

I have to go back to the point that Keith made that forbidding any activity from young people makes it more attractive. The young people in this club are, as a group, better behaved and more likely to succeed than some of their counterparts. I've always been very proud of the second and third generation members that we have in our club and their successes on and off the track.

If you spend more time with this club, I believe you will realize that this is an issue that we take seriously and have investigated and made sound decisions on. This is a car club with driving and social events. We expect our members to drive safely during driving events and to behave appropriately during social events. Banning this practice would just be taking another freedom away from responsible adults. I suggest we leave things as they are and move on.

[Jackie C]

I couldn't say it better than Keith, Gary and Mark. (Yeah, what they said.) If you don't care for the club activities, it is your prerogative to not partake. I guess we won't try to get Stone to sponsor an AX then, eh?