Beer hostage

[LaLa661]

wow. are we really still talking about this?

...UNbelievable.

[kescheussler]

So bringing guns is cool?

[MTrotter]

It better be. I always keep a handgun in my helmet bag.

[Kone Killer]

I'll still donate a cooler for the folks that put away the cones and help pack up the trailer.

[LUCKY DAVE]

The "spare strut" I always bring to the track is really a bazooka.........

[Gary Burch]

I love handling my UZI after a 6-pack at the autocross

[Kim Crosser]

The following sentiments are mine only and are not intended to be a statement of the Board's position.

I have been somewhat concerned about drinking after AX events for some time - but not enough to stop me from having a beer - so far... OregonDuckMan has finally prodded me enough to spend some time thinking about this issue.

There are a number of factors to be considered, and these go well beyond "personal freedom".

1. "We have always done it..." Hmm... not exactly true. Check with John Straub (Archivist), but I believe this is actually a relatively recent phenomenon - at least where the Club actively budgets for beer and wine at the events. Back in Club pre-history, post-AX beverages were brought by the individual participants. Then, extra beer from overnight/away events started being stored in the trailer and shared with people at the next Q event. Eventually, it became what it is today, where beer/wine is actively stocked for events.

2. Setting an example for kids. I am not that worried about setting an example - examples should be set by their parents. However, who exactly is ensuring that everyone having a beer (or three) is over 21? What happens if a 20-year old driver has a drink after an AX and is then busted (for anything)? There is some nasty liability and case law about "making alcohol available" to minors, which gets a lot worse if they then get behind a steering wheel. Minors are subject to a 0.01% BAC limit, which is basically any amount of alcohol.

3. Club funding for beverages. Should the Club really budget a noticeable percent of each event's costs for beer and wine to be handed out afterwards? Is that an appropriate use of Club funds?

4. Compliance with local laws. I bet most people are not aware that glass containers (for anything - not just beer) are explicitly prohibited by the San Diego Municipal Code in the Q parking lots (SDMC 59.0502). At the very least, we should only have (gasp!) canned beer (and boxed wine? shudder!).

5. (Paranoia alert!) If anything should happen to someone leaving after having even one drink, there are any number of possible negative consequences for the Club - "deep pockets" lawsuits, possible loss of PCA insurance for track events, possible loss of use of the Stadium venue, individual liability suits against Club officers/directors and event managers, [add your nightmare here]... On the positive side, California case law generally protects the "host" from the actions of a drinking "guest" (unless the "guest" is under 21 - see item 2 above). However, that mostly applies to private parties thrown by individuals - it gets fuzzier in organized activities sponsored by a Corporation (like us). While we would probably prevail in any such action, it could be expensive, time-consuming, and painful to go through. And if the driver is under 21, it can get real ugly real fast.


Sooo... What exactly would be wrong with returning to a BYOB (or BYO Can, anyway) approach? If some want to bring extras to share, I don't see a problem there, but I am seriously questioning whether PCA San Diego Region should be purchasing and providing alcoholic beverages as a part of a driving event.

Is having a "free" beer after the event that big a deal? Is bringing your own that big a nuisance/expense?

Respectfully,
Kim (why write a short story when you can write a novel) Crosser


p.s. I am very interested in responses to the above points, corrections to any misstatements I may have made, etc. However, arguments about "personal freedoms", "gun rights", etc., are beside the point. I am not against drinking after an AX per se. I just question whether the Club should be providing the drinks. Also, complaints about the DUI laws and lawyers are inappropriate responses - both are what they are, and we just have to live with them. You have my permission to try to get the laws changed, dis-bar some lawyers, or do anything else useful in that area.

p.p.s. Some DUI factoids for the curious:

A Blood Alcohol Concentration (BAC) of 0.08% or greater is an automatic "guilty" of Misdemeanor DUI, even if you have done nothing else wrong. If you are in an accident, even one not your fault, and you have a BAC of 0.08%, you are already guilty - if there is serious damage or injury involved (again, even if not your fault), you are looking at being guilty of a Felony. If you get pulled over for anything and blow a 0.08% or higher, then you are going to jail - period.

"So - if I am under 0.08%, I am ok, right?" Sorry - if you are cited/arrested for any infraction/crime while in a vehicle, you must be under 0.05% to be automatically determined to be not guilty of DUI. If you are 0.05% or higher, you are not "automatically" guilty (as with 0.08%), but now you are in an area where - despite the wording in the statutes - you are presumed guilty until proven innocent. Ask any DUI attorney or prosecutor.

"But I only had one drink (well, maybe two)!" The average woman at 138 pounds will hit 0.05% with two "standard" beers in one hour. Anyone at 100 pounds can hit 0.07% with two drinks. This assumes a "standard" alcohol content of 0.54 ounces of alcohol per 12 oz drink, or 4.5% alcohol by volume. But - most commercial beers now are 5.0%, Heineken is 5.4%, Sierra Pale Ale is 5.7%, Stone IPA is 6.9%, and Stone's Double Bastard Ale is 10%. Two Stone IPAs contain more alcohol than THREE "standard" beers - if you drank 2 Stone IPAs in the short time that the beers are usually out (see start of thread!), then depending on your gender and weight you could be well over 0.05 and edging into 0.08 territory. Also, drinking more rapidly than 1-2 drinks per hour ("Quick, they're packing up the beer!") will usually increase the BAC further.

If anyone actually powers down three beers (or three glasses of wine) after an AX, that person is almost certainly guilty of at least Misdemeanor DUI if they get behind the steering wheel. (Note - this doesn't mean that they are "driving drunk" - DUI is exactly what it says: "driving under the influence". You may be able to drink 3 beers, then go out and demonstrate coordination and response skills better than the Chinese Olympic gymnastics team - but once you have a measurable BAC, you are "driving under the influence".)

[LaLa661]

I hate to contribute to this thread because it needs to go away but...

if we eliminate beer from the AX events, then we should do the same for all other PCA events too. If the argument being made is that someone could drink too much and then have an accident (or whatever) then shouldn't the same argument apply to the other events? However i don't see anyone making that claim -- it's only against AX.

So, with that said, I don't see why AX has to be singled out. Is it because it's a driving event? Well, if the drinking was being done DURING the driving, then I could see why it's a problem. But since the drinking is happening at the close of the event, then it's no different from a board meeting, or Motorhead Mondays or Tuesday Socials or whatever. Is it because PCA is paying for the beer? Well, i know we have other "events" where beer is paid but no one has a problem with those.

If we change the way we treat AX, then i think it's only fair to change other PCA-sponsored events that supply alcohol. You don't like that approach? You think that's going overboard? I don't see the difference. You don't want to change the other events? Then leave AX alone.

And who are these "kids" everyone is talking about? You mean the few drivers we have that aren't yet 21? You think they aren't already exposed to alcohol and people drinking? You think they don't have parents to teach them right and wrong? Give me a break. It's not like we're doing lines of coke off the PA system.

I love handling my UZI after a 6-pack at the autocross

Gary, you work wonders with that UZI!

[Dan Chambers]

It's not like we're doing lines of coke off the PA system.

I don't like doing coke. the carbonation really bothers my sinuses.

Lorri, good on ya, girl. I think your points are valid. If you ban alcohol from one event type, you ban it from all.
(Happy Hour, anyone?)
DC

[Kim Crosser]

Um - at the risk of creating more hate and dissent - I agree with you all about the other events as well as AX. The same arguments apply to ALL events where the Club is providing alcohol and there is an expectation that many of the attendees will be driving after drinking.

[kescheussler]

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop reading threads on holding beer hostage.

[jenniferreinhardt]

This will be the hot topic at the next board meeting.

My personal opinion is that Kim and Joe’s points are valid, however, I don’t want to change any club alcohol customs because this is a social aspect that connects many people and contributes to the camaraderie many feel.

Yes, we could bring beer to the AX, but most people would not be bothered to bring beer and would just leave. Could a ‘no club-provided alcohol’ policy snowball into other events? We have to drive home from all of them.

There’s always a risk in practically anything we do. In my life, I choose to accept the risk and not worry about it.

As a club, we are re-visiting our social host insurance through PCA National. If adequate coverage is confirmed, then we can choose to remain as we are concerning alcohol.

[MR LIPP]

wow. are we really still talking about this?

...UNbelievable.

[Curt Yaws]

we all know that drinking and driving are a deadly combination

I think perhaps this assumed statement of fact is a part of the problem we are having. Drinking and driving are not a deadly combination. Driving while intoxicated is a serious danger, to both the driver and everyone else on the road. But to say drinking and driving are a deadly combination assumes that everyone who drinks is intoxicated.

I have never seen anyone at an AX who I thought was intoxicated. I do believe if anyone at an AX saw a driver who appeared to be getting intoxicated, the excessive drinker would be "cut-off" and driven home. But, its all speculation as I'm not aware that we have ever had such a problem. I believe our drivers are more responsible and respectful of cars and their dangers than the average person.

I don't think we need to fix a problem that we really don't have. I appreciate the efforts of organizations such as MADD, etc. to keep us all safe and aware. But I don't think we are their target group.

We could carry this logic another step and say that driving fast kills. But since we all drive fast on the track, not too many members would vote for a 55mph speed limit on the AXes, or 75mph at a Time Trial. I think that most of us truly believe that we are better drivers on the road due to our driving control skills learned at driving events. I know that I tend to drive slower on the highway since I started AXing, since I know I can get my fix on track days.

Any endeavour, practiced irresponsibly, can be dangerous. In my few years with PCASDR I have found safe, responsible activity to be the minimum acceptable standard.

I am not in favor of banning responsible drinking from our events. But we should always watch for a problem if we think we see one. Thanks for listening.

[LUCKY DAVE]

I appreciate the efforts of organizations such as MADD, etc. to keep us all safe and aware. But I don't think we are their target group.

Anyone who uses any alcohol of any kind for any reason is their target group. MADD is really a front for (the Evangelicals, the Southern Baptists? I forget...) that fanatically oppose alcohol on religious grounds. They want to stomp out any behavior that doesn't fit their beliefs. (sound familiar?)
If they called themselves "Sour Faced Christians against fun" they wouldn't get much support, but who doesn't love Mom and apple pie?
Brilliant marketing.........