Talk to me about "rotation" of the car early in th

[Tim Comeau]

Whaddaya think?
In the latest PANO, David Murray sez the biggest mistake newbies make is coming off the brakes too fast and upsetting the car. (ask Kim Crosser).
I believe it's not letting the car turn(rotate) enough before rolling on the throttle. Nasty, nasty, understeer.........we hates it, we does.

[Kim Crosser]

Popping off the brakes to get on the gas is a reflex and hard to break (no pun intended ).

Until driving in a DE with Tim, I hadn't realized how much that was unsettling the car. After Tim pointed it out, I began to notice the effects. I am trying to think my way through the turns more (maybe that's what helped so much in the last AX?), but still find myself coming off the brakes too abruptly.

I think it was mentioned (briefly) in the PDE School a couple of weeks ago, but I don't recall any instructor discussing it with me on a track until Tim.

I think when David Murry talks about "newbies" he means drivers with racing licenses, who have already mastered most of the basics, but haven't worked on smooth brake release.

I think I have got the rotation working, but the brake release needs a lot of work - perhaps that will get me to the top of BRI (come to me, my precious! ).

[ttweed]

David Murray sez the biggest mistake newbies make is coming off the brakes too fast and upsetting the car.

Jackie Stewart said the same thing during his F1 career.

Nasty, nasty, understeer.........we hates it, we does.

Not a concern in an early 911. What I have to worry about is over-rotating during trail-braking!

TT

[Dan Chambers]

I think it was mentioned (briefly) in the PDE School a couple of weeks ago, but I don't recall any instructor discussing it with me on a track until Tim.

Kim:

I don't know if you've worked with me at the PDS Threshold Braking exercise, or talked with me about the miriad of braking techniques I've accidently ( ooh ... wrong choice of words.... ) uh, I mean discovered by luck, but smooth on the brakes and smooth off the brakes are what I've always enphasized at the schools and at events I instruct.

One "thought process" I try to encourage is: the pedals should be worked like swim fins when snorkling. Smooth motions will produce the best effect. Choppy motions get you no where. Apply the brakes smoothly with a set/squeeze technique to ultimate firmness, and the car settles and slows with a minimum of upset with very little nose dive. Release the brakes smoothly, and the tendancy for the nose to "spring up" is greatly reduced, allowing the transition to throttle to be more subtle and less unsettling on the car for turn-ins, thus minimizing push/understeer.

All of this happens in nano-seconds, and by instinct ... especially on uneven surfaces, with paint, and unpredictable tires ... like at the Q

Sorry if I'm singing to the choir. These concepts were introduced to me by Jad, Steve D., and Ralph L. Their continued emphasis on proper braking ... especially Dente "emphasizing" quite loudly in my right ear the need to release the brakes smoothly .... allowed me to improve my driving a great deal in one year. Ironically, the better I got at braking, the less I found myself using them ..... giving me more "quality time" on the throttle .

Anyway. Just my toughts. Feel free to discuss braking any time. It's one of the things I like to teach.

[Tim Comeau]

Dan,
Great description of things going on with that middle pedal!

It's always interesting to me to hear new ways of relating the same stuff to people, because you never know which example is going to make the light come on for that individual......
I've often thought we should have a racing techniques school, but was cautioned about asking too much of our pool of instructors. Clearly, many drivers in our club are ready for more advanced techniques. So, I'll just keep teaching the stuff on an individual basis with my rental clients, and wait for the day the club wants to do it en masse. It would be fun......

[kary]

I have talked with Jack and others about a race school or some advances techniques. There are some businesses that would be intereted in help sponsoring such an event, we just need to get some buy in from the club and decide upon a format

[Jad]

From past meetings I have been to where it was discussed, the theory sounds great, but the hurdles have been prohibitive.

1. who teaches versus who are the students? most people want to take the class, with few thinking they know it all and can teach it (with even fewer being right ).

2. where do you have it? The Q, SOW, or ??? we have limited days at each and some don't want to give up a day for a specialized class.

3. what are the requirements to attend? tt license? invite? Is this going to drain volunteers from helping at the regular driving school?

4. what do you teach? Much of the 'advanced' stuff really takes more practice than real teaching. For example, left foot braking, uh hit the brakes with the left foot, lesson over, now do it smoothly, consistently and at the limit everytime.

Not saying these can't be overcome, but lots of people have talked about how great the advanced school would be, but when you really start to work out the details, it is not that straight forward. Someone is going to have to spend a LOT of time and effort to even have a chance.

Fingers crossed....

[MikeD]

I like the idea. However, maybe the answer isn't to design our own "advanced driving school", but work out some kind of club package/deal with a school that already exists. Derek Daly and/or Bob Bondurant come to mind and are probably the closest. Both seem to offer corporate and/or group packages.

What would also be really, really, really, really cool would be to get some sort of club or group package for the Porsche Driving Experience.

[MikeD]

What would also be really, really, really, really cool would be to get some sort of club or group package for the Porsche Driving Experience.

Did I happen to mention that this would be EXTREMELY cool!

[Kim Crosser]

Dan Chambers wrote

I don't know if you've worked with me at the PDS Threshold Braking exercise, or talked with me about the miriad of braking techniques I've accidently ( ooh ... wrong choice of words.... ) uh, I mean discovered by luck, but smooth on the brakes and smooth off the brakes are what I've always enphasized at the schools and at events I instruct.

No - I haven't worked with you on those. When I took the PDE as a student (twice), the threshold braking only emphasized getting ON the brakes smoothly. Once it is pointed out, smoothness in getting off the brakes is incredibly obvious (doh!)

Because it is usually happening while you are heel-and-toeing and trying to transition to max acceleration, smoothness here seems a lot harder to practice.

Of course, if we just follow Steve D's advice and throw the car sideways to scrub off speed, you can skip the brakes, right?

[kary]

I like the idea. However, maybe the answer isn't to design our own "advanced driving school", but work out some kind of club package/deal with a school that already exists. Derek Daly and/or Bob Bondurant come to mind and are probably the closest. Both seem to offer corporate and/or group packages.

What would also be really, really, really, really cool would be to get some sort of club or group package for the Porsche Driving Experience.

I like Mike's enthusiasm to think out of the box on this one. We need more positive thoughts like these to get this idea off the ground.

Might I suggest that we form a small team to come up with some proposals to do this. I know I would be interested, sounds like Mike is interested, I know Jack is interested because we have talked about it at various events. Others interested in finding a workable solution?

[David J Marguglio]

Kary: you and I have spoken about this before - I am in! Also, Tim W. (M.O.M) has wanted to sponsor this thing for years and has promissed to bring Randy Pobst in as our guest instructor. Thinking outside the box, I think it would be possible to contract with Dick Barber, Derick Daly, etc. to bring their instructors to our venue and we drive our cars it would be waaaaaaaaay cheaper than going to one of their schools. The added benifit would be not learning on a Formula Ford that we will never drive. If you are serious about this, I will be happy to put some time into it.

[Dan Chambers]

I like Mike's enthusiasm to think out of the box on this one. We need more positive thoughts like these to get this idea off the ground.

Might I suggest that we form a small team to come up with some proposals to do this. I know I would be interested, sounds like Mike is interested, I know Jack is interested because we have talked about it at various events. Others interested in finding a workable solution?

Here's a thought: there are some folks with some very unique knowledge out there. Some are experts at braking, some at trail-braking, some at drifting before the apex, some at finding the line that allows maximum carry-speed through any corner, some at late-apex/throttle-steer/pitch-catch and riccochet through the turns, etc, etc.

As someone who learns on a more cerebral level (as apposed to kinetic/seat-of-the-pants level) I'd like a written description of what to practice before getting behind the wheel. What about collaborating on a manual/manuscript of different techniques? Various techniques could be described and possibly outlined (I recall a diagram of Heel-Toe somewhere that really helped me understand the principal) to get the thought process going. Then, those Instructors who are requested by a driver could request a single session of instruction at one event (like a DE or Autocross) to actually see/feel/try the technique.

As an example, I could be available to take Kim Crosser out for 1 run session and show/teach him what I might know about the nuance/subtlety of brake use... maybe just one or two laps of my practice session. I could, as well, have a student the same day, so that the Instructor Pool isn't negatively impacted. This way, the advanced techniques are shared, the students still have Instructors available, and the advanced skills get imbued on those who would like to have them. The new technique could be practiced once read ... and briefly shown to a more advanced driver, by an advanced driver.

In many ways, this is how I've been picking up little tid-bits of technique. Talk it up in the pits, try a little experiment during practice-laps ... take home a new skill.

My 2-cents.

[MikeD]

Yeah, I'm in.

Dave: I like the idea of driving my own car (or possibly yours ). Although, I'm not sure what you meant by "our venue". I think it would be better to have something like this at a real track (SoW, WSIR, or Buttonwillow). I do not think it would be good to have it at the Q. So if we have to travel anyway, why not go all the way to Vegas or Phoenix? Either way we have hotel charges for ourselves, but it we go to their town we don't have to put the instructors up.

BTW, did I happen to mention that doing the Porsche Driving Experience would be like totally way cool!?!?

[David J Marguglio]

Mike: I meant the venue of our choice as opposed to where their school is located. The advantage of driving our own cars (forget about mine Mr. Bluesides) is probably the best aspect of my brilliant plan; though making fun of our fellow club members is high up there too. It would simply be easier for everyone to get their car to WS (or maybe Fontana!) than LV or Phoenix.

The Porsche Driving Experience would be cool in the sense that we were at least driving P-cars, but they would need to curtail the school to what we wanted. I have heard from those that have attended that it was not that "advanced".