Driver's School

[John Straub]

Tom,

Not a bad idea. Change can be a good thing too.

John

[Don Middleton]

...I can't help but wonder why we continue to hang on to this tradition and bake in the sun (or sit out in the rain) under the Budweiser sign.
TT

I need a "refresh" as well on why we camp at the north end of the lot...the south end is the clear choice for the AX's...I bet Dan remembers why we use the north end on PDS Sundays

[Dan Chambers]

...I can't help but wonder why we continue to hang on to this tradition and bake in the sun (or sit out in the rain) under the Budweiser sign.
TT

I need a "refresh" as well on why we camp at the north end of the lot...the south end is the clear choice for the AX's...I bet Dan remembers why we use the north end on PDS Sundays

During my tenure with Carl and Gary we tried using the south side to pit with some success. The issue was ( and is) how much of the track can be seen from the pits. The biggest advantage, and one I personally agree with, is that you can see and describe what other cars are doing when sitting in the pits up at the Bud sign. Of course, we haven't had the privilege of sitting in the pits this year because attendance has been so low that ... when you aren't driving you're corner-working. Anyway, I got so much feedback from Instructors about the "hindered" view under the Trolley, that we sent the pits back to the top on Sundays. So, Tom, yes. We've "gone both ways" with the pits. While I have reluctance to go south on Sundays, I've gone along with it in the past and will agree to go along with it should the next generation CDI's deem it desirable.

As to changing the course; again, when Carl, Gary and I were CDI's in 2006 we ran up against a good amount of resistance from the old guard Instructors who liked the track for teaching purposes, and requested that we don't change it. In fact, when we located the pits under the Trolly and put the slalom up top, we had quite a bit of feedback about "how we changed (ruined) the track for the school." So while I agree with you that change is good and would be an asset to the school, we need to have the Instructors who do the teaching align themselves to the idea. Otherwise, they won't show up, and then what to do with empty passenger seats in the student's cars.

I'm all for flexibility and change, and I want to be able to encourage Instructors and volunteers to come out, have a good time, and contribute. In order to accomplish this, the CDI's often have to waltz on Everest's Knife Edge in order to get the maximum results from a diversified situation and a populous who are far more conditioned to giving orders rather than taking them. (More Kansas City than Cleveland, as I like to say.)

I hope that helps clarify some of the issues you raise.

[Kim Crosser]

I bet Dan remembers why we use the north end on PDS Sundays

I think I saw some stone tablets in the back of the trailer that discussed the original PDS setup:

Thou shalt maketh the track to be 133 cubits by 333 cubits and shalt be no less than one milliarum in length.
The track shalt be wide enow for 4 oxen in tandem to pass.
None shalt useth any device to measure time. Any hourglass found shalt be struck down and smashed and the sands scattered to the winds.
If there be two charioteers in any chariot, at least one must wear upon the arm the red cloth of the instructor.
He that liveth by the cone shalt dieth by the cone.
None shalt lieth in shade, but all shalt be illuminated by the sonne.

I think I saw Dan's initials at the bottom of the tablets.

[Amail]

That's the funniest thing I've seen all day!

[ChuckS]

I also want to thank all who helped to put this school on! Few realize just how many people it takes to make an event such as the PDS run so well and so smoothly. Without enough instructors it would be difficult and slow and we could only handle a much smaller number of students, but without all of the people who give of their time and effort, it simply would not even happen. Thanks to all of you for making it happen!

And thanks to the students for giving all of us the pleasure of helping you "see the light" - both of learning and having a great time. Make sure to come back and join our world of having fun!

This school may have been the second smallest in terms of students (at least as far back as I have been involved), but it was one of the most fun!

Oh, and Kim - those tablets -- check to see if those were Keith's initials.

Feedback and discussion is needed to improve the product. While year over year consistancy is a great target for the course, the issues with the pavement may require us to change, in which case the desires that have been mentioned will be strongly considered. Keep the ideas coming. An email is OK, especially if you do not want to air your ideas to everybody. Otherwise, keep it coming!

[mrondeau]

Feedback and discussion is needed to improve the product. While year over year consistancy is a great target for the course, the issues with the pavement may require us to change, in which case the desires that have been mentioned will be strongly considered. Keep the ideas coming. An email is OK, especially if you do not want to air your ideas to everybody. Otherwise, keep it coming!

The CDI's will be having a post event meeting in about a week or so and all of your comments will be taken into consideration. I've gotten quite a few of them so far and you've given us some great ideas to consider. Instructors, we want to make this work for you as well, so keep those comments coming. cdi@pcasdr.org

Thou shalt maketh the track to be 133 cubits by 333 cubits and shalt be no less than one milliarum in length.
The track shalt be wide enow for 4 oxen in tandem to pass.
None shalt useth any device to measure time. Any hourglass found shalt be struck down and smashed and the sands scattered to the winds.
If there be two charioteers in any chariot, at least one must wear upon the arm the red cloth of the instructor.
He that liveth by the cone shalt dieth by the cone.
None shalt lieth in shade, but all shalt be illuminated by the sonne.

I think I saw Dan's initials at the bottom of the tablets.

No wonder the parking lot is so beat up!! Damn Oxen!!

[Gary Burch]

I like pitting under the trolley. The worst pavement in the west lot is in front of the trolley tracks-that's why it is always pre-grid. I can bring the old front bumper of my car if you want to see the scrape marks from one of our last attempts to pit at the north end, when Dan, Carl and I were CDI's.

If you want your student to see the track walk out with them and show them. That's why corner working is so valuable at the school, it's a great teaching aide.

Change is good, it makes you think.

[LUCKY DAVE]

I've worked a few drivers schools, and never could figure out why we pit under the Bud sign. See more of the track? Sure, the bottom of the track is a lot closer and easier to see from the top than the top is from the bottom because it's a bunch closer.......huh...?
In any case, the "other" end of the track is too far to see well (by a few cubits) no matter which end you're looking from, so why make the students -that we're trying to recruit into regular competitors- pit out in the hot sun/cold rain?
Doesn't it make more sense to make the experience as pleasant as possible?
The "track" surface is hammered anywhere you look, I fail to see the advantage of pitting under the bud sign.
This is only my .000002 cents of course.

[Kim Crosser]

Remember that the trolley (and the shade underneath) only came into existence in the late 1990's. Prior to then, there was no shade anywhere in the Stadium, so the North end made as much sense as anywhere else, and it does provide a better overall view of the entire track.

I think a lot of the comments make sense to consider relocating the base of operations to the South end under the trolley:
Shade
Surface conditions (particularly that bump on the exit from the slalom and the general poor condition around the slalom)
Shade
Access control (lock the North gate, control access thru the South)
Did I mention Shade?

The open-ended box at the end of the track is a lot of fun to watch, but you certainly learn more driving than just watching from the end. It might actually be more interesting (and useful) to watch drivers taking the end of the straight into the tight right-hander.

There was certainly nothing wrong with the track or the way the school was held last weekend. Everything went well, everyone learned a lot and had a lot of fun, and the organizers did a great job. However, I suspect a poll would find 10:1 in favor of relocating the base to the South end.

Oh, and we need to ban the oxen...

[Dan Chambers]

Dave:

Thanks for your feedback. I'd like to politely respond, if I may.

I've worked a few drivers schools, and never could figure out why we pit under the Bud sign. See more of the track? Sure, the bottom of the track is a lot closer and easier to see from the top than the top is from the bottom because it's a bunch closer.......huh...?

Actually, it's simple geometry. If you stand at the top of the hill and look down you have a view of the entire track on the West Lot starting around 180 degrees and narrowing to about 110 degrees based on the configuration of the shape of the lot and the elevation change. If you stand at the swale at the bottom of the West Lot and look north you start at about 110 degrees of view, and then the line of sight squeezes a bit on the east side, based on the configuration of the lot and the trees, obscuring about 1/3 of the view toward the northeast, obstructing entirely the area around C3. So, I guess its all about (yep, here it comes .... hold on ....) your "point of view" about which place is better for seeing what other drivers are doing. (You knew I was going there, right? )

.....that we're trying to recruit into regular competitors-

Sorry, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is not the "PCASDR Competition and Racing Preparation Autocross School." It is the "Performance Driving School". Our intent is to teach people how to safely drive their car at a higher level than they may be used to, and show them the car's potential. One of the first slides in the Friday Night Chalk-Talk specifically states:

" While references may be made to racing to illustrate a particular point ... THIS IS NOT A RACING SCHOOL."

So, if you thought this was about teaching people to compete, and recruit new AX'ers, then I've effectively failed to deliver the message: THIS IS NOT A RACING SCHOOL. So, let me be clear: this is not a racing school. Now, if a few graduates of the PDS decide they like the inferred competitive nature of the Sunday AX (remember, we don't time them on Sunday) then that's a great unintentional by-product of the PDS, and I welcome them to a new atmosphere: competitive autocrsossing; where time matters and we emphasize speed and car control.

Of course, these are just my POV's. Others may disagree with my ...er ..."perspective."

Thanks again, Dave, for your input.

Other ideas?

[LUCKY DAVE]

Dave:

Thanks for your feedback. I'd like to politely respond, if I may.

I've worked a few drivers schools, and never could figure out why we pit under the Bud sign. See more of the track? Sure, the bottom of the track is a lot closer and easier to see from the top than the top is from the bottom because it's a bunch closer.......huh...?

Actually, it's simple geometry. If you stand at the top of the hill and look down you have a view of the entire track on the West Lot starting around 180 degrees and narrowing to about 110 degrees based on the configuration of the shape of the lot and the elevation change. If you stand at the swale at the bottom of the West Lot and look north you start at about 110 degrees of view, and then the line of sight squeezes a bit on the east side, based on the configuration of the lot and the trees, obscuring about 1/3 of the view toward the northeast, obstructing entirely the area around C3. So, I guess its all about (yep, here it comes .... hold on ....) your "point of view" about which place is better for seeing what other drivers are doing. (You knew I was going there, right? )

.....that we're trying to recruit into regular competitors-

Sorry, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is not the "PCASDR Competition and Racing Preparation Autocross School." It is the "Performance Driving School". Our intent is to teach people how to safely drive their car at a higher level than they may be used to, and show them the car's potential. One of the first slides in the Friday Night Chalk-Talk specifically states:

" While references may be made to racing to illustrate a particular point ... THIS IS NOT A RACING SCHOOL."

So, if you thought this was about teaching people to compete, and recruit new AX'ers, then I've effectively failed to deliver the message: THIS IS NOT A RACING SCHOOL. So, let me be clear: this is not a racing school. Now, if a few graduates of the PDS decide they like the inferred competitive nature of the Sunday AX (remember, we don't time them on Sunday) then that's a great unintentional by-product of the PDS, and I welcome them to a new atmosphere: competitive autocrsossing; where time matters and we emphasize speed and car control.

Of course, these are just my POV's. Others may disagree with my ...er ..."perspective."

Thanks again, Dave, for your input.

Other ideas?

Dan, you're "right" about the field of view, but I feel that your point is moot, as most (if not all) students won't be looking at a part of the track beyond the corner they're standing closest to anyway (just like they watch their headlights when behind the wheel), and in any case can't discern subtle detail from far away with "untrained eyes".
If we don't recruit new AXers from school participants, where do they come from?
I'm not saying we urge them to race (I agree it's not a racing school), but we should extend the friendly invitation to come out, practice what they've learned at the school, and have safe, legal, fun with us.

[ttweed]

During my tenure with Carl and Gary we tried using the south side to pit with some success. The issue was ( and is) how much of the track can be seen from the pits. The biggest advantage, and one I personally agree with, is that you can see and describe what other cars are doing when sitting in the pits up at the Bud sign.

Hmmm, I never heard the "sight-line" complaints when we pitted the mock autox at the south end, but I have to agree with Dave that it is an arguable benefit. The only part of the course that isn't visible from the bottom end of the lot is the section that loops into the far NW corner by the C3 lightpole. With the pavilion set up like it was last Sunday, I could not see the straightaway section leading to the bottom slalom by H3 from my pit space, so it was no better from my perspective pitting at the NW end. If you want to watch sections of the course with your student outside the car, I think it's advantageous to get closer to the action anyway to really discern what cars are doing through them. This can be done while cornerworking, or by walking up the west side safely behind the K-rails. I wouldn't consider the viewing perspective a "dealbreaker" in any case, and the other advantages of pitting at the south end far outweigh the sight-lines in my view.

TT

[993Panzer]

Unfortunately I was unable to help with the PDS this past weekend. I was wondering if we still take the students out on a little track walk with instructors during run groups. Not only do the students get to see the the track from many angles but they have input from several instructors as they are lead through each part of the AX track. Since this was instituted I feel that the students get a much better over view of what is happening at several points on the track. Corner working is a great way to watch and learn what others are doing but is limited to the just the corner the students works on. The walk exposes the student to all of the track along with instructor comments of cars running the course. I feel using this aide is much better than just being able to see most of the track, some of it from a great distance, from one vantage point. In this respect I would say pitting near the trolley is a better place for the students and the school.

My .02 cents.

[gulf911]

Now, if a few graduates of the PDS decide they like the inferred competitive nature of the Sunday AX (remember, we don't time them on Sunday) then that's a great unintentional by-product of the PDS,

That ranks up there with Clinton's "I did not have sex with that Woman" and Nixon's "I am not a crook!"....